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HG8Harrier
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 Posted - 10/02/2006 : 2:58:13 PM
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It makes me sad to be an American when I read this:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15105305/?GT1=8618
I don't like getting into politics, but this is just shameful. The greatest thing America had going for it was freedom from religious persecution. In today's world, the Amish have been one of the few religions to have been largely unimpacted by the outside world. Now the problems of the rest of the country have been forced right onto their doorstep and ruined the lives of hundreds, if not thousands, in the community with the passing of these six young women.
Damn our second amendment.
It should read:
A mandate to keep your arms bare of any firearms, and a right to keep a bare ass.
Even if you're not religious, pray for Lancaster County.
I'm not, and I am.
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Country: USA
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balataf
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Posted - 10/02/2006 : 4:29:41 PM
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My family has several cebturies of Lancaster County roots, and I agree with you concerning the admiration for Amish virtues, altho you can find an incredible set of closed minds, too.
The 2nd Amendment is not at fault for the behavior of this nut.
The long-term value of the constitutional provision is very high, in fact, I am enuf of a Jeffersonian to highly support the original intent. The colonial militias were ALL ABLE-BODIED MEN, except for conscientious objectors, whp paid a special tax in lieu of service. Reflecting this, the great majority of dtates contain wording such that the rights of citizens to bear arms should not be abridged.
Consider that my 14 1/2 YO son qualified with a target pistol last Tuesday, and is behaving very responsibly as a competition shooter.
Your justifiable anger has a misplaced focus.
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HG8Harrier
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Posted - 10/02/2006 : 5:11:03 PM
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Thank you Balataf,
And I do rescind it to a degree. I would be that conscientious objector. However, I do realize the need for our armed forces to be trained in combat. However, I just can't understand with the school shootings, gangland violence (of which there is a ton in the Bay Area), accidental shooting deaths, and assorted homicides, that the Second Amendment continues to exist. As a graduate of a public high school, I learned nothing about gun and gun safety... and I was one of those people that actually went to class.
I don't believe that only the brave men and women of the Green Beret should have firearms, but I still don't find it justifiable for private citizens to own and operate firearms... especially if it affects a community like the Amish of Lancaster County. I know they aren't totally "without sin", but can there be any more innocent of victims than pre-teen Amish girls? I still can't make sense of it all, and it only makes me angrier the more I think about it.
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runrdad
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Posted - 10/02/2006 : 7:03:32 PM
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The problem is not with firearms. The weapon that was used to kill those young ladies could have been a knife or a baseball bat. Do we also outlaw them? The problem is multilayered but in my opinion the criminal justice system holds most of the burden. There is no fear in todays USA of going to jail. Most jails offer a better environment than most criminals have at home. Plus they know they will be out in a short time. I say bring back public executions and make every school kids watch them. Plus put judges on the bench who will utilize the guidelines we have and not shortchange society by letting a criminal get a light punishment. Fear is a good thing in keeping along the straight and narrow. I fear a hot eternity and that keeps me from doing wrong.
I've been to hell but didn't stay long enough to talk to the devil.
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openess
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Posted - 10/02/2006 : 7:20:33 PM
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I agree it makes no sense. It's sickening and heartbreaking. But with over a hundred million guns in circulation, that horse is so far out of the barn, it's never coming back, no matter what you do to the second amendment.
At its core, this was a crime born of insanity. As long as insanity remains a part of the human condition, horrific things like this will happen. Humankind has a long way to go before behaviors like this are completely behind us.
May God save the remaining victims, and comfort the families as they struggle with their unimaginable pain.
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HG8Harrier
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Posted - 10/02/2006 : 7:34:16 PM
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Runrdad,
I think we both need to rethink what we've written a little. I'd need to learn a lot more about the man and his background to determine if he was truly unafraid of the prison system. Some reports say he had suicide notes, in which he vowed vengeance against the Amish. This, too, makes no sense to me. How can you have a vendetta against the Amish? If he was truly suicidal, I guess he wouldn't fear prison, so you would be right in that regard. There's also nothing that states his religious preference. Maybe he was an Atheist or something, but what if he was a Baptist or Presbyterian or Quaker? They all believe in Hell as far as I know.
I agree with Openess, insanity is never justifiable or predictable, and it is hard to base laws around the insane. Maybe I jumped the gun... it's in part because I see a lot of ties between Nudists and Amish. Ha, I bet that's the strangest thing you've ever seen! Seriously, though, like nudists, the Amish just want to live life according to their own terms, they intend no harm and generally want to be left alone to do what they feel is right.
May those victimized find what they seek after death.
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 10/02/2006 : 8:40:28 PM
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Unfortunately, it is a red herring to try to control guns in
eliminating this situation. Nationally. the cities with the
toughest gun laws have the highest murder rates, like D.C.
On the other hand, the most constructive law, averaging about
a 25% reduction within a year or two, is to allow concealed
carry by all citizens with no felony records. That Works!
The answer to the social pathology can only come from
organizing and controlling it from within the communities and
neighborhoods. There is no substitute, and no set of laws will
make much difference, except stiff added mandatory sentences
for using guns in crimes.
My Souderton (Montgomery County) high school had a policy that,
mostly in hunting season, students MUST check their firearms
at the principal's office. Often there would be around 30 of
them lined up and visible thru a hallway window, and it would
sometimes include a pistol or two for target shooting. In
those 4 years there were ZERO incidents of student violence
with any weapons, including knives, (tho a few Fistfights
happened.) Nor did the four townships and two boros of our
heavily armed School Dustrict have any reported murders during
that time.
The current stupid ban on any guns on school property means
that firearms are now kept in the car trunks, and then parked
on the open streets. That shouldn't make anyone feel safer.
I guess my point is that it is not a GUN problem, it is a
CULTURAL social problem with crime, that happens to use guns.
Such questions are not really susceptible to much of anything
in government action.
Whenever you catch a politician calling for more laws to
regulate already-illegal weapoms, carried by people who are
already criminals, you know you have either a scoundrel
playing you for a fool, or someone too stupid to know better.
John D. Froelich
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Jim in Boston
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Posted - 10/02/2006 : 9:50:01 PM
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Ain't the second amendment we should be re-thinking. It is the first. We are entirely too tolerant of religion. If we don't figure this out, either the Christians or the Moslems will eat our lunch, depending on which of them figure it out first. Only our second amendment rights will save us from thest folks. Trouble is, they have second amendment rights too.
jameslkirtleyjr
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Mike2Nude
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Posted - 10/02/2006 : 10:31:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by HG8Harrier
It makes me sad to be an American when I read this:
In response to your very first line. You shouldn't be ashamed to be an American. No matter how you define a group; religion, nationality, race, sex, politics, clothing preference, every group is going to have some members that reflect poorly on that group.
You should be proud to be an American, that you have the right to express your thoughts or pray for the victims and their families without having your government come down on you.
I'm not saying our government is the best, but we do have enough rights that make me proud to be an American.
Mike
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CMx2
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Posted - 10/03/2006 : 12:17:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim in Boston
Ain't the second amendment we should be re-thinking. It is the first.
We don't need to rethink either one.
I've got a Bible and a gun and I'm not turning in either.
There are plenty of places you can go on this earth if you don't like the U.S. Constitution.
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Edited by - CMx2 on 10/03/2006 12:21:09 AM |
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nudeguy
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Posted - 10/03/2006 : 03:22:48 AM
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Every time a horrible event happens like the Amish incident, I hear people calling for a ban on legal firearm ownership by private citizens. Here's the problem with that kind of thinking: real criminals usually get their guns illegally on the street. Assuming the whacko Charles Carl Roberts did in fact purchase his weapons legally, there are easy ways he could have obtained them if laws existed to ban gun sales. Legal restrictions have no effect on someone intent on killing himself or herself along with others. Roberts had several other dangerous items in his possession including wire, plastic handcuffs (nylon "zip" straps), rolls of tape, a stun gun and knives. Shall we ban the sale of kitchen cutlery at Macy's as well, or prohibit the sale of electrical strapping, duct tape, and copper wire at Home Depot?
Criminals WANT bans on the legal sale of firearms. That way, they will be the only ones with guns in their hands and all law-abiding citizens will be akin to hunted animals. Who will protect us then? Certainly not the police, who investigate tragedies AFTER they occur. I will take care of myself and loved ones rather than wait for law enforcement to show up and rope off the area while we are being loaded into body bags.
The people of Lancaster County need to heal in peace without having outsiders turn this into a political issue.
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nudeguy
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Posted - 10/03/2006 : 03:35:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by HG8Harrier
It makes me sad to be an American when I read this:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15105305/?GT1=8618
You know what? There's a lot I don't agree with regarding some of our government's current policies, but I am NEVER sad to be an American.
CMx2 is right. If being a citizen of our nation makes you sad, the world is a huge place and lots of other countries will gladly accept you. In many of those areas, uttering such a statement about your own homeland would cause you to be dragged away by your own government and executed. Count your blessings.
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runrdad
Forum Member
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Posted - 10/03/2006 : 09:13:11 AM
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The great thing about this country is that we can openly speak our mind in a variety of forums. We can choose the type of work we want to do, where we want to live, how many children we want, and the list goes on. We have freedom that is being taken away by criminals and the insane. Inanimate objects are not the problem but it is the people who use them and how they use them. If we remember back to 9/11 it was not guns that killed thousands of people but a few of airplanes. Prior to that who would of thought it could occur. The root to all the violence and terror in the world is people both sane and insane. The question is how do we control them?
I've been to hell but didn't stay long enough to talk to the devil.
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calmnude
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Posted - 10/03/2006 : 09:42:18 AM
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I am sad about some of the things that happen in America, and angry about others, but I am never sad or ashamed to be an American.
The 2nd amendment is not the problem.
There are enough laws on the books to control firearms sale, if they were enforced.
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NudeLori
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Posted - 10/03/2006 : 10:53:02 AM
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I have to get in on this. First off, I am NO FAN of guns, not at all. I really see no reason to have them at all - they are dangerous no matter how well trained you are to use them. That said, to somehow imply that the availability of guns turned this "otherwise law abiding citizen" into a homicidal maniac flies in the face of reality.
As for the comment that we are "too tolerant of religion" and Christians & Muslims are the problem in this world, read the Bible and the Qu'uran. They are both pretty clear about the value of human life (ever heard of "Thou Shall Not Kill"? It's a pretty big one). Yes, people do horrible things in the name of religion, but again, that's the fault of individual(s), not the religions that they are clearly paying no attention to.
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Mnstnz
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Posted - 10/03/2006 : 11:56:14 AM
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After reading the thread here I find I agree with most here to some extent. It seems most everyone agrees the problem is a social one. Humans have thoughout history been one of the most violent species, and at the same time one of the most forgiving. Wars have been fought since the beginning of our time. The only things that change are the weapons used to fight them. The tools of death are only as dangerous as the attitude of the people who pocess them. Be it stones,knives, spears, swords, guns or bombs, someone will find a way to harm someone else, and will make a reason for doing it. Mt personal attitude is to do all I can to be ready to protect myself and family, but do as little harm as possible to anyone else. When you desire accetance from others you have to give the same,
now enough of the philsofical(sory for bad spelling) stuff and lets all get naked and enjoy life.
Dan
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Why we should rethink the 2nd Amendment
