| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Jochanaan
Forum Member
|
 Posted - 10/21/2004 : 7:43:33 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by StuFox
I bet these women in Florida who are “lobbying and marching for top-free rights” are generally regarded as extremist feminists by most ordinary people.
Hi, Stu!
Some of them are, but more of them aren't. If you check out websites that promote topfreedom, it becomes apparent that a wide selection of women are for this, and many of them are not otherwise activists, feminist or otherwise. Nor are most women who go topfree regarded as "easy" or "immoral". Sure, there are a number of people who think they are; but as a lawyer, you must be aware of how prejudiced and wilfully ignorant people can be.
|
|
Country:
| Posts: 60 |
 |
|
|
Jochanaan
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 7:50:51 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by StuFox
Of course it is detrimental if it inflicts a change upon society that changes the environment for everyone and that society doesn’t want.
Even if it benefits society? Surely you have seen the study results and anecdotal evidence that suggest that discomfort with nudity is associated, or can lead to, increased shame regarding one's own body, which in turn can lead to psychological distress and in some cases medical conditions.
|
|
Country:
| Posts: 60 |
|
|
|
Datona
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 7:52:14 PM
|
NudeAl says:
"However, womens breast should carry no more social stigma that a mans bare breast. Our society at one time did not tolerate a mans bare breast either but times change societies view changed as it will regarding womens breast in due time."
So in other words, one side is right and the other side is wrong. This issue isn't about who's right-and who's wrong-it's about what is permissible in public areas.
Democracy rules. The vast majority of people simply don't want to be exposed to others areas of the body which are the erogeneous zones. These are public areas-that EVERYONE has to use them-and they should be comfortable for EVERYONE.
As I posted earlier, walking around topless isn't central to the well being of a normal person-and fails a test of balance.
Stu,
I really doubt that 5% figure of nudists. I think we might be talking in the fraction of a percent.
|
|
Country:
| Posts: 18 |
|
|
|
Jochanaan
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 8:06:03 PM
|
Democracy does rule, Datona. But the people's will changes, and will change. Perhaps future democracies will look back on us with amused contempt for our discriminatory practices regarding topfreedom. Remember, two centuries ago slavery was accepted by a majority (though not, it should be noted, by all, especially by many of intelligence and good will).
|
|
Country:
| Posts: 60 |
|
|
|
Datona
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 10:21:26 PM
|
Jochanaan,
It's a stretch to compare slavery to whether or not a woman should be allowed to expose her breasts for all to see. You're right..people's attitudes do change. However, I am not seeing a change here by the public as a general rule:
*outrage at the Janet Jackson/Superbowl debacle.
*I dont see women as a whole actively wanting to walk around bare chested!
Slightly off topic, but at swimming pools, men wear swimming trunks which extend to almost the knee-and are baggy. It's considered bad ettiquette to wear speedos. Conversely, I see women in bikinis-and there's no objection.
I just don't see society moving in the direction of nudity-if anything-the opposite appears to me to be true.
|
|
Country:
| Posts: 18 |
|
|
|
Datona
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 11:25:31 PM
|
Jochanaan says:
Even if it benefits society? Surely you have seen the study results and anecdotal evidence that suggest that discomfort with nudity is associated, or can lead to, increased shame regarding one's own body, which in turn can lead to psychological distress and in some cases medical conditions"
Jochanaan,
I am in the Health Care Field-and have a number of university level medical books. Let me assure you-there is NOTHING in them that promotes nudity. If anything, the opposite is true. I earlier quoted from a University Level book on Medical Assessment-the type of book people study to earn degrees in Health Care. One of the things talked about is unnecessary exposure-and respecting a patient's right to privacy. I see people ALL THE TIME-and much more intimate than you most likely do. We NEVER expose them unnecessary-even doing a bed bath-we keep all parts covered except what is being washed. To do anything less would be considered undignified treatment of a patient.
|
|
Country:
| Posts: 18 |
|
|
|
mamadothall
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 01:07:19 AM
|
I still can NOT understand why my 82 yr old hubby can run around w/o a shirt on but I have to cover my breasts except when we are within the confined of White Tail Park here in Virginia
and why men can go around wearing trousers showing have of their buttocks but I dare not go outside wearing pair of shorts showing the same amount of my buttocks when we are outdoors on our property in chowan county, north carolina
I am 76 and wear a size 48DD bra and my bra fits my husband very nicely.He has worn it when playing the role of a female couple times. Why is he allowed to go bare breasted but I'm not.. why aren't women allowed equal rights in everything????
Dot Hall
|
|
Country: USA
| Posts: 11 |
|
|
|
Datona
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 01:41:33 AM
|
Hi Dot,
If you go back a couple pages-I posted from an accepted and accredited medical textbook verbatim on female anatomy. Female breasts and male breasts are not the same and with that, are viewed differently.
"Why is he allowed to go bare breasted but I'm not.. why aren't women allowed equal rights in everything????"
It's accepted at the pool I go to-for women to wear "skimpy" bathing suits-but men wear baggy trunks. I'm a guy-I think that's fair.
Women can wear pants, but a guy can't wear a dress-I think that's fair too.
Just different standards, and how things are viewed.
|
Edited by - Datona on 10/22/2004 01:45:22 AM |
|
Country:
| Posts: 18 |
|
|
|
StuFox
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 11:29:23 AM
|
Hi Cheri
To you they are mundane body parts but you are a nudist. To others they are parts of the body that have special significance. Of course the body is a vessel, but our bodies are more than that to most people. That’s why we wear cosmetics, are conscious of our figure, complexion, hair and clothing. Our bodies cannot so easily be divorced from our identities.
Hi Nude Al
Don’t worry about disagreeing with me. The day that everyone here agrees with me will be the day I move on. That would be SO boring! ;)
I agree that times do change – and sometimes people’s sensibilities change too, as with exposure of the male chest. But you are very brave to predict that the female breast will go the same way. I don’t see any signs of this happening. We had topless beaches in 1968 in St Tropez, but be very lucky to see a bare female breast on a popular British beach. If anything, the signs are that topless sunbathing has become passé and is not as common as it was ten years ago.
Hi Jochanaan
I have never been to Florida so I’ll have to take your word on whether or not most women campaigning for top-free rights are or are not feminists. I know that it’s not really an issue here except with hard-line feminists. I would never suggest, and do not believe, that those women who want to be topless are in any way less moral than the rest of the female population.
“Even if it benefits society? Surely you have seen the study results and anecdotal evidence that suggest that discomfort with nudity is associated, or can lead to, increased shame regarding one's own body, which in turn can lead to psychological distress and in some cases medical conditions.”
It is very dangerous to look at a particular study and from that to make a policy that affects everyone regardless of our wishes because someone decides it’s to our ‘benefit’. These studies are limited in their outlook (as most studies are) as they only examine certain criteria and subject to interpretation. I could commission a study to prove that the crime of voyeurism is far more prevalent at naturist beaches and from that deduce (wrongly) that such beaches are more dangerous because they attract perverts.
What is good for us is ultimately for us to determine, not a few researchers nor a minority interest group such as nudists nor radical feminists.
Stu
|
|
Country:
| Posts: 22 |
|
|
|
sailordave
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 11:53:47 AM
|
Looking at history, at one point in time a woman's bare breast was a common site in many parts of the world and when people swam in a lake, pond, or ocean they did so nude or nearly nude. Somewhere along the way, possibly due to puritan type religious zeal, more and more clothing began covering the body. At some point the sight of a woman's ankle or shoulder was considered an offense. Even the sight of a man's bare chest and or shoulders was something sexual and had to be covered up. To this day, there are still cultures that want the entire woman hidden from site under cloth or indoors and other cultures that look at a topless woman as "ain't nothing but a thang" (local slang) or as common as blue sky and green grass. It's the one that tries to cover up the woman that looks at the breast as an offense but the one that sees the breast as common place does not. I'd still like to know what or why you find the woman's bare breast an offense to yourself? I'll agree with you about telelvision programs especially since the instances bare breast are used on our television for the most part is for sex appeal and to try to increase ratings. But the documentaries not involving sex in which bare breast are shown are done in such good taste and a non-sexual way that some parents WANT their children to watch and guess what, their children aren't offended.
We the willing who are led by the unknown must do the impossible for the ungrateful.
|
|
Country: USA
| Posts: 388 |
|
|
|
Datona
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 12:11:28 PM
|
SailorDave,
In some cultures-women go bare chested. In Africa..other places..take a look at National Geographic . But, as I said, it's not a matter of who's right and who's wrong - it's a matter of what is most comfortable for the vast majority in public areas they have to use . Here, topless is just not acceptable-at least for most.
|
|
Country:
| Posts: 18 |
|
|
|
Stu_Fox
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 3:16:36 PM
|
Dave
Here in Europe, the sight of a bare breast gradually became more and more rare over the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Nude swimming by women has been frowned upon since the Middle Ages and by men since early Victorian times (although to a lesser extent in some very rural communities). As civilisations advance then nudity tends to be limited or even shunned. The part about not seeing a woman's ankle was a very short-lived taboo. Womens dresses in Georgian times, then the Regency and even early Victorian times were often cut above the ankle. By the time of Queen Victoria's death, hemlines were rising again. So the ladies ankle taboo lasted about half a century. The bare-chested man taboo had a similar duration. I have a painting of two men boxing bare-chested in public and it's dated about 1830. My father has a photo of my grandfather winning a swimming contest in about 1910 - and he is bare-chested too!
You are absolutely right, and I have said myself, that what is and is not acceptable is culturally determined. We can also change our cultural conditioning if we want to. But do we want to? And should we be compelled to do so because a minority want us to - not because of a need but because of a preference? I say we shouldn't. There are places set aside for those who wish to expose certain parts of the body that are normally covered for recreational purposes. The minority who wish to engage in nudity among strangers should confine their activities to these places.
I'd still like to know what or why you find the woman's bare breast an offense to yourself?
To me, a woman's breast is an intimate part of the human anatomy. Most women also regard their breasts as intimate - to be seen/touched only by their partners or, where absolutely necessary, certain medical professionals. These women may or may not be comfortable allowing members of their own sex to see their naked breasts (e.g. in a communal shower) but they would never contemplate allowing men to see them. As the breast is intimate, it falls under the same category as the buttocks, or even the sex organs.
some parents WANT their children to watch and guess what, their children aren't offended.
Children aren't 'offended' by imagery. They wouldn't be 'offended' by seeing a gay couple having sex but that doesn't mean that we, the adults responsible for them, should necessarily allow them to witness such a spectacle.
Stu
|
|
Country: United Kingdom
| Posts: 18 |
|
|
|
Jochanaan
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 4:50:50 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Stu_Fox
We can also change our cultural conditioning if we want to. But do we want to? And should we be compelled to do so because a minority want us to - not because of a need but because of a preference? I say we shouldn't.[/br]
It's something more than a preference, Stu. It's a reaction against a form of tyranny, even "tyranny of the majority". Many of us who believe in a higher Good see the garment requirement as a form of oppression--perhaps not as uncomfortable as chains and whips, but still oppression. And requiring women's breasts to be covered is also illogical, considering the very few differences between men's and women's breasts. (Sorry, datona, that study you quoted doesn't give enough differences to satisfy me.)
quote:
Most women also regard their breasts as intimate - to be seen/touched only by their partners or, where absolutely necessary, certain medical professionals. These women may or may not be comfortable allowing members of their own sex to see their naked breasts (e.g. in a communal shower) but they would never contemplate allowing men to see them.
You forgot babies! Of course they touch their mother's (or wet-nurse's) breasts when they nurse. And it's well-known that no formula is as healthy for babies as human milk. It would be so much more convenient for nursing mothers if they didn't have to worry about a little exposure every time they nursed their babies; that alone is a compelling argument for topfreedom. Nursing mothers must find the current standards doubly oppressive.
|
|
Country:
| Posts: 60 |
|
|
|
naturalgar
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 5:35:53 PM
|
I do believe that It you are a woman and want to go topless in the City of Toronto, there is no law against it. Have any of you Canadiens done this or know about this?
Gary
|
|
Country:
| Posts: 200 |
|
|
|
Stu_Fox
Forum Member
|
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 5:41:09 PM
|
Jochanaan
Many of us who believe in a higher Good see the garment requirement as a form of oppression
You may think it's a "higher good". Islamic fundamentalists think they are working for a higher good. So do communists, terrorists and fanatics of all persuasions. In the end it has to be the people who are affected who should decide.
The "garment requirement" is merely a means by which the chances of optimising the comfort of as many people as possible who use public places is enhanced. I could argue that it is oppressive to prohibit me from swearing in public, or having sex in public, or ritually slaughtering sheep in public (which is a practice in some religions). But we rightly confine such activities to domains outside of the public gaze.
As for breastfeeding - I will meet you half way on that one. Personally, I think women who breastfeed should do so discreetly and out of public sight - just as we urinate out of general view. But I agree that it is essentially different to exposing a breast just because a woman feels inclined to do that. So, if you will compromise on this, I will. Breastfeeding in public - OK - topless sunbathing for females - banned.
The $64,000 question is - can nudists compromise? Or will they be satisfied with nothing less that a constitutional right to be naked when and where they please? 
Stu
|
|
Country: United Kingdom
| Posts: 18 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Nudist-Resorts.Org Discussion Forum Bulletin Board Nudism Clothing Optional Resort Naturism Nude Beaches |
© 2002-2020 SUN |
|
|
|
Topless Equality
