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Warmskin
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 Posted - 07/21/2011 : 05:29:40 AM
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To HomeNudist and JBSNC,
You can keep making fun of me all you want, and you can laugh at the misery of helpless people overseas, and all you will do is look like you're making juvenile delinquent statements.
I defend oppressed people while you laugh at them in this thread.
I'm highly American by nature, and your statements trying to ban certain discussions are highly anti-American.
I suppose you can start your own thread. You won't even begin to reach the extreme popularity of this thread. as you can see for yourself by reading the number of people who read this thread.
I'm still waiting for you to state some facts, as I have quite thoroughly. All you do is make silly statements.
"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without?"
Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Country: USA
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/21/2011 : 3:47:29 PM
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For the Federalist-Jeffersonian, and particularly during the Jacksonian-Whig eras, the Democrats backed the issuence of currency by state-chartered banks as opposed to "hard money" policies. The "panic of 1837" resulted when too many of those cheated by not having the required cash rerserves. (Similar to 2007 breakdown on Wall St.) The result was that the Whigs were elected in 1840, remaining competitive until killed off by trying to fudge on the slavery issue.
The Confederacy's system did not develope political parties, and all but a tiny handful of figures had previously been Democrats. They had almost no central currency, just Jefferson-style state-chartered banks in the Democratic policy tradition.
issuing bills that became more dubious as the War went on.
The Union currency, even the first government-issued "Greenback" dollars of fiat money were well-managed and held their value. The Northern Democrats, like Seymour, favored higher inflation.
The Democrats have ALWAYS been the pro-inflation party, since Jefferson opposed harder currency regultions of Treasury Secretary Hamilton. This was a clasic split between the two Founding Fathers, and Jefferson quit to organize opposition to the Washington Admin. policies. Birth of the Democrats, the oldest political party in the World.
In the Populist Era, especially when the Populist Party took over the Democrats, their mantra was for unlimited coinage of all silver that got mined. "Bimetalism" was at 16 weight units of silver equal to one of gold. McKinley had made his reputation backing the gold standard and high tarrifs.
The Federal Reserve was, of course, born during Democratic control of the House, Senate, and Presidency.
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Edited by - balataf on 07/21/2011 4:03:51 PM |
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/21/2011 : 4:22:29 PM
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the wake of Obamacare
By Neal Boortz
What happened almost immediately after Dear Ruler signed ObamaCare into law? The private sector stopped creating jobs, that’s what. Yeah, I know … Nancy Pelosi said that the passage of ObamaCare would create 400,000 jobs “almost immediately,” but she was as full of yak squeeze on that one as she is on most of her other pronouncements.
A new report from the Heritage Foundation highlights the correlation between the time ObamaCare was signed and job creation figures. From January 2009 through April 2010 (when ObamaCare went into effect), we were created jobs at a pace of about 67,600 per month. After ObamaCare was passed, that figure dropped by 90% to just 6,400 jobs a month. While it can’t be said for sure that ObamaCare was the cause, the timing is convenient and would be in line with interviews, articles and polls showing that job creators are stifled by uncertainty, government regulations and higher taxes … all of which are a guarantee under ObamaCare. The Heritage Foundation offers a few reasons as to why ObamaCare discourages employers from hiring:
•Businesses with fewer than 50 workers have a strong incentive to maintain this size, which allows them to avoid the mandate to provide government-approved health coverage or face a penalty;
•Businesses with more than 50 workers will see their costs for health coverage rise—they must purchase more expensive government-approved insurance or pay a penalty; and
•Employers face considerable uncertainty about what constitutes qualifying health coverage and what it will cost. They also do not know what the health care market or their health care costs will look like in four years. This makes planning for the future difficult
Creating jobs, better healthcare .. these are not important compared to the idea of making more people dependent on the government.
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Edited by - balataf on 07/21/2011 4:23:31 PM |
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HomeNudist
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/21/2011 : 5:14:47 PM
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Heavy Sigh . . .
quote:
Originally posted by Warmskin
To HomeNudist and JBSNC,
You can keep making fun of me all you want, and you can laugh at the misery of helpless people overseas, and all you will do is look like you're making juvenile delinquent statements.
I have not responded to you in 5 days. Yet, you persist in personal attacks against me.
quote:
I defend oppressed people while you laugh at them in this thread.
I'm highly American by nature, and your statements trying to ban certain discussions are highly anti-American.
Oh, I get it. Free Speech is vital . . . as long as it agrees with your viewpoint. All dissent must be shouted down!
quote:
I suppose you can start your own thread. You won't even begin to reach the extreme popularity of this thread. as you can see for yourself by reading the number of people who read this thread.
I have no desire to start another thread that detracts from the beauty of this site's purpose.
quote:
I'm still waiting for you to state some facts, as I have quite thoroughly. All you do is make silly statements.
Ok.
Fact #1: You continue with personal attacks. Even when those you attack ignore you.
Fact #2: For someone who claims to be interested in US Politics, you seem to be obsessed with Israel.
Fact #3: I will continue to ignore you until you until you realize that Israel has as much a right to live in Peace as we do.
**********************
Perhaps you have not noticed, the discussion moved on to Gold standard vs. fiat money. I see no need to drag it back kicking and screaming to a dead horse topic that already has been beaten into the dust.
On the current topic I am undecided. On one hand, If we had stayed on the Gold std. we would have priced ourselves out of world markets. I have read that there is not enough Gold available worldwide to satisfy our current obligations. On the other hand fiat money is an illusion. Think about it, it is money based on National Debt. So, if we did pay off our National Debt, our money would cease to exist! Somehow that screams to ring the dumbass bell.
In my personal opinion, (and I am not humble about it) I think it is more important to restore a manufacturing base in the US. Without a manufacturing base creating products with value, our economy can never grow. A service economy is parasitic in nature. Eventually it will suck it's host dry. An economy based on manufacturing creates wealth. Wealth that is reinvested in growth and innovation. We as a Nation were fools to allow our manufacturing base to move offshore. It sucks the wealth out of the US instead of drawing it in.
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Warmskin
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/21/2011 : 9:11:35 PM
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Jefferson was opposed to Hamilton's elastic and flexible money values, as we see in the following link to a small essay.
Rather than a soft and easy money advocate, Jefferson preferred a hard money system, wherein Jefferson favored precious metals that hold their value, thus protecting the people from the vicissitudes of paper money that could lose its value and gain in value based on the whims of the central bankers, who have overseas sentiments and loyalties. This helped bring America under foreign dominance through the banking system.
Thus, evidence shows Jefferson to be for known assets, like precious metals to be real money, as opposed to "paper money."
http://publius-historystudent.blogspot.com/2008/10/paper-is-poverty-thomas-jefferson-on.html
Independence and submission to foreign banking intuitions pretending to American ones are two very opposite factors. If a country truly wants independence, then they must have their own decentralized banks, free of manipulations, and whose money has intrinsic value, and not value assigned to it by the "Hamiltonians."
Thus evidence shows Jefferson to be for known assets, like precious metals to be real money, as opposed to "paper money."
If we look at a modern "dollar bill," we see that it is not a pure asset, but one that can only be used to discharge debts. What if I don't have a debt? Can I still use the dollar to buy something. Remember, say, at a grocery store, the cashier has both my food and my money. I still have not incurred a debt with the store he/she works in. So, very technically, I could not use my money based entirely on what it says on the money.
The whole Hamiltonian elastic money system is based on debts. No wonder we have problems, today. But then Hamilton declared that a debt is a public blessing. By his definition, we are more blessed than we deserve to be,today. I'd like a whole fewer blessings and more Jeffersonian hard money that is worth something all on its own.
Absent the machinations of the FED since 1914, our dollar would be worth what it was in 1914. Senior citizens would be much less helpless, especially those on fixed incomes. Gold receipts would have fixed value, and you can plan your life much better that way.
Hard money is the true blessing, and it leaves our children and grandchildren much better off. We have given them the heritage of enormous debt and increasingly less monetary stability. We don't have much to show for ourselves in keeping the faith of organic Americanism. It's fully correctable, but the great majority of us are not willing to change our monetary and fiscal policies to give our posterity an even break.
We can't seem to get beyond our techie-toys, NFL, jobs, shopping, wars, and welfare. Live for now and forget tomorrow, seems to be our current motto. How will our posterity think of us?
"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without?"
Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Edited by - Warmskin on 07/21/2011 9:16:49 PM |
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| Posts: 1964 |
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Warmskin
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/21/2011 : 10:43:42 PM
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An interesting interview with the GOP's default, designated thinker, Ron Paul. I love his integrity and highly pro-American points of view. The Founders would vote for him if they were here today. Maybe not Hamilton, though.
http://www.businessinsider.com/an-interview-with-ron-paul-2011-7
"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without?"
Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Admin
Forum Admin
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Posted - 07/22/2011 : 12:07:57 AM
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"Paper is poverty,... it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself." -- Thomas Jefferson (1788)
"The maxim of buying nothing without the money in our pockets to pay for it would make of our country one of the happiest on earth." -- Thomas Jefferson (1787)
"I sincerely believe... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale." -- Thomas Jefferson (1816)
Great information in this thread. Thanks for the references.
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/22/2011 : 12:54:29 AM
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Two points:
Firt: Homwenudist said: "In my personal opinion, (and I am not humble about it) I think it is more important to restore a manufacturing base in the US. Without a manufacturing base creating products with value, our economy can never grow."
This is the most common economic error of the moment. For a base of 1980, US manufacturing in 2007 was 2.73, almost 2 3/4 times bigger. While there are many items currently not produced here as much,other, higher-value items rose to take their place and grew gigantically.
The illusion of decline comes because this extra production is being done with only about 32 per cent as many workers.
One classic example is a GE plant where, 30 years ago, 1,700 workers made 270 locomotives permonth. The 2006 figure was 1,700 locomotives per month being made by 300 workers. Similar productivity gains are everywhee, with robots and computers increasing manufacturing mightily.
THERE WAS NO DECLINE, IT GREW DAMN WELL. But that means that those jobs are never coming bck any more than we will go back to harvesting grain with hand cicles. One recent column pointed out that Google, Yahoo, and three other of today's giant firms put together have only 20,000 employees. A century ago, there were dozens of railroads each of which had more employees.
W: The trade-off by which Hamilton took over the war debts of the states, in return for acquiring their territories west of the Appalacians provided a very sound currency basis as
land was sold off in such places as today's Ohio or Illinois. In line with the Federalist high tariff they produced enuf money for a very hard currency. I strongly stand by my previous post: The Democrats have ALWAYS wanted softer money from Jefferson thru Obama. It is one of the constants of US history. Old Federalist Madison was about the only truly hard-money Democratic President, but he was in a minority at a time when the Cabinet held alot of collective power, and Madison had been a founder of the Federalists with Jay and Hamilton.
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Edited by - balataf on 07/22/2011 12:57:17 AM |
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Warmskin
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/22/2011 : 04:20:25 AM
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A quote from Jefferson:
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."
You cannot inflate and then deflate hard money, or precious metals. They have ever been relatively stable, far more so than soft, paper money that Hamilton favored. With paper money, you can scheme against the people, and steal their wealth. Jefferson was completely in favor of money that was honest. Hamilton had a reputation for his schemes, and the banking interests he represented. Even John Adams could not stand him.
Paper money is inherently dishonest, as Americans, at least some of them, have discovered in the 20th century. Quanitative easing by the FED is something that is illustrative of soft money. Real money backed by metals is stable and honest. Hamilton was an agent for the former and Jefferson was an advocate of stable money that the people could count on.
In no way was Jefferson for paper money, but rather money with inherent value. Fixed value money is hard money, by common sense definition. Re-definable money is soft, and is coveted by people like Hamilton, Bernanke, and their ilk. Both the Democrats and Republicans prefer soft money because the FED will create more of it out of thin air to pay for their respective welfare and warfare.
Remember "butter and guns" of the LBJ days, and how it was paid for with inflation? The FED eased the money supply - McChesney and Burns, FED chairmen who believed in flexible dollars to monetize LBJ's huge debts. Jefferson would have been horrified by that.
In the Jefferson quote above, he easily defined what the US Banks and the FED were - manipulators of the quantity of money.
It would be fruitless to think of Jefferson in terms of FDR. They were diametrically opposed to each other. Quote after quote from Jefferson completely dismisses FDR's philosophies of big government's authority over man. FDR needed elastic money, Jefferson abhorred it.
You would be hard pressed to find a quote from Jefferson advocating the dominance of money mischief conducted by central banks. Again, money mischief can only occur when there is re-definable money whose value can be determined within several months of making palpable changes to its quantity. That is the hallmark of soft, squishy money that changes on demand by central bankers' whims. How could Jefferson be for something that centralized authorities could manipulate?
If we had, say, gold-backed money, the price of most everything would stay the same. For instance, the dollar would be worth at least 25 times as much as it is now. Of course, it would take longer to earn a dollar, but people who depend on its steady value, such as seniors on a fixed pension would be safe from the manipulations by the FED.
Hard money = honesty. Soft money = dishonesty. Jefferson = honesty. Hamilton = dishonesty.
"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without?"
Dwight D. Eisenhower
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HomeNudist
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/22/2011 : 11:33:48 AM
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Sorry balataf, can't agree.
The last job I had in the electronics field was at [I see I can't name the Corp. here, just think of Police radios with a name that starts with M], "assembling" hand held radios that were sent to U.S. bases in Iraq. We took radios (made in China) and placed them in a box with an antenna (made in Korea,) a battery (China), belt clip (Mexco), and a printed manual (Mexico). Yup, our military uising field radios "assembled" in America, by an American Corp., and not one damn part was made in America.
All those jobs were exported, not lost to automation.
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Edited by - HomeNudist on 07/22/2011 11:37:38 AM |
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Warmskin
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/22/2011 : 8:34:28 PM
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As Adam Smith professed, it's better to buy where it's cheapest and sell where it is most expensive. It works for a family and does for businesses. Businesses have no obligation to provide jobs. They have an obligation to maximize profits. Jobs and profits are not the same thing, and often enough are not related.
The obligation of the worker is to keep up with the latest in knowledge and seize on it. There is no substitute for education and applying oneself in endeavoring to do better. Workers who do not stay current will fall behind.
People make fun of me for frequently taking classes in relevant subjects, yet they know who to turn to for advice for technology. Educate or stagnate, or worse yet, self-exterminate (vocationally speaking).
"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without?"
Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Country: USA
| Posts: 1964 |
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Warmskin
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/23/2011 : 03:36:05 AM
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I have to love this guy. He has been correct in his forecasts quite nicely. I like his accent!
Our money problems are not limited to the USA. However, it shows the need to get rid of global currencies or semblances of that, in order to restore the American currency. Unfortunately, the trend is toward a global currency in which Americans must suffer the wide fluxuations of the value of that currency. It won't be run by angels, but rather people who stand to make a lot of profit by those flucations. It would be Jefferson's fears about paper money writ large.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csmPF7D5jog&feature=related
"Whenever a man has cast a longing eye on offices, a rottenness begins in his (and her) conduct."
Thomas Jefferson
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/23/2011 : 8:50:07 PM
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Home, You may well have been been in an industry where that was more true in th entire economy/ Yet that 273 percent increase in mabnufacturing came from SOMEWHERE. That increase is measuresd in constant dollasrs, and does not have any inflation fudge factors. The value added by the locomotive plant alone is worth the production of millions of small itemas. What is the value added by the new Boeing plant copared to the textile mills that closed? Tioday's techniques have reduced the mabn-hours per ton of steel to 10% of 1950's, and about 3% f a century ago, while the volume has increased. It has obviously shift to fewer items of high-value, mostly with very little human labor.
A steel company built a bolt-and-nut mill in Indiana in 1978, with a production roughly equal to one that closed in Cleveland in 1972. But the new robotized plant employed 250 where the plant that closed had had almost two thousand.
Long freit trains, in a different field, no longer need a Caboose for extra crew.
It is exactly equal to the loud cries about the death of agriculture in America. It was 90% of all laBOR IN 1800, about 50% in 1900 and about 1% in 2000, yet it has GROWN like manufacturing did recently.
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Warmskin
Forum Member
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/01/2011 : 11:38:35 AM
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Well, we got thru the deadlin es I thought we would.
The smallness of the fall-off in the stock markets indicated that the big-money managers never had much doubt either.
Well, on to the setup for the NEXT ROUND.
Of course, it all depends on the voters, as always, just as this fight was based on the 2010 vote.
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