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blackrebel
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 Posted - 04/18/2010 : 10:57:27 AM
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I hope that this forum does not move into the hate filled chat that is in Clothes Free Forum where if you are not of one mindset that you are ridiculed and if you challenge back you are chastized for being hate-filled.
I was booted for not being a hard line liberal and had the audacity to be black and conservative. They loved putting my black a** in my place because I was not one with a Victim Mentality and looked for my government cheese to survive.
Calling calling people sleazy may make certain people feel go until the run as others shine light on their positions and show factually how the name callers are flawed and trying to distract from the facts of the name callers position(s). Both sides of the political spectrum are flawed, and also have good positions.
I hope that tossing out the usual and customary flaming talking point name calling is not the rule here. If you have a point make that point on FACTS not feelings. We dont need to divide this room with name calling. As a black man I vomit at the use of the Race Card, and as a Conservative I also vomit at the 'Party of Lincoln' rhetoric.
A friend make sharky comments about the Contract with America from years ago but ran when I asked her what parts were wrong and explain why? The new Tea party platform, I ask the same question. GIVE DETAILS on what is wrong with it instead of using the usual bomb tossing rhetoric about Palin and Limbaugh, and Hannity and those red neck racists that are supposed to be the vast majority of Tea Party people.
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balataf
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Posted - 04/18/2010 : 1:38:20 PM
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I think anyone will find, if you look up previous political and sometimes historical discussions here, that you will find a record of general civility, with a very few individual exceptions. The few bomb-throwers have generally quit when they don't get domination with incendiary responses back and forth. Several participants, like myself, have been sparring back and forth for years now. I know that I can speak for the usual gang that we'd love to be able to meet face-to-face, but have sometimes thousands of miles between us. All are welcome! "It's a free country!" You might look up the thread "Politicl Affiliation"
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Edited by - balataf on 04/18/2010 1:41:57 PM |
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NaturistDoc
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Posted - 04/18/2010 : 1:57:04 PM
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jbsnc: quite true that 46% of income earners pay no federal INCOME tax, but that is a long way from saying they pay no federal tax. Payroll tax, Social Security and Medicare are all federal taxes. Your third point about how the higher income earners are paying an increasingly higher percentage of the total tax take each year is highly misleading. The reason they're paying a higher percentage of the total tax take is that their share of the total income is rising even faster. It is an inarguable fact that, despite the supposedly 'progressive' nature of the federal income tax, people in the lower brackets end up paying a larger percentage of their income in taxes than do the wealthy. Bush's tax cuts may have "benefitted everybody", but those in the bottom half averaged a couple of hundred bucks, while the top tenth averaged over a hundred thousand. And thanks to the Bush era of Crony Capitalism, there will be for the foreseeable future an even larger number of people paying no income tax because they're unemployed. Nor should we expect wages and purchasing power for the average American to increase any time soon. It's no wonder that while Wall Street is declaring the recession over, Main Street is unconvinced. And now we're treated to the spectacle of Mitch McConnell getting up on his hind legs to bitch about the proposed financial reform legislation, falsely claiming it's a bailout bill, just minutes after meeting with a roomful of bankers and lobbyists. It's obvious whose side he's on. The Tea Party's anger is understandable, but aimed at the wrong target. They have totally been played.
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FlCpl4NewdFun
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Posted - 04/18/2010 : 6:22:20 PM
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blackrebel - totally with you about the other site. I'm a member but rarely ever post for that very reason (same profile name). From what I've seen it's nothing but "Group-Think" and if you have a differing opinion you must be ignorant, uneducated, Christian, Southerner, or all of the above!
This site seems much more tolerant of differing viewpoints. If everybody thought the same, what a totally boring existence we all would would lead.
I'm a Republican, but most of my friends are Democrats (live in South Florida, not much of a choice) and we seem to get along just fine. We understand that we all have our families and countries best interest at heart but just have a very different philosophy on how to arrive at the same endpoint. Just because I think Ronald Reagan was a fantastic president and leader doesn't make me an evil person. Nor does it mean that I have any less respect for those who supported Clinton, Gore, and Obama.
So while I'm a Republican I am a nudist, pro-choice (but hate abortion), hate hand guns and assault rifles (though a veteran and don't want to limit others from owning them), support gay/transgendered marriage and adoption (but understand why others feel this endangers families), consider myself a Christian (though many would say I am not, but who cares), and support affirmative action programs and gender equality in university sports and the workplace. Despite all this, I so deeply believe the Republican economic principals (well the Reagan and Tea Party one's at least) is the correct course of action with low taxes, free market trade, and a generally held belief of moving toward smaller government is the best way to ensure continued economic prosperity, that I continue to support Republican candidates despite the sometimes obvious opposing viewpoints from my social views. At the end of the day, I have faith that our constitution and judicial systems will uphold and protect civil liberties.
Maybe all of this is too idealistic, but it gives me the freedom to enjoy the State of the Union Speech each year whether it's George bush or Barack Obama delivering the message. But I still hope it's coming from someone with an (R) after their name January 2013.
Cheers!
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jbsnc
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Posted - 04/18/2010 : 9:09:46 PM
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Ndoc,
>>jbsnc: quite true that 46% of income earners pay no federal INCOME tax, but that is a long way from saying they pay no federal tax. Payroll tax, Social Security and Medicare are all federal taxes.<<
I did not say this you did. Why do you misrepresent me? In fact about 40% of the 46% receive back about all of the payroll taxes from negative income taxes such as Earned Income Credit.
>>Your third point about how the higher income earners are paying an increasingly higher percentage of the total tax take each year is highly misleading. The reason they're paying a higher percentage of the total tax take is that their share of the total income is rising even faster.<<
Misleading in who’s mind, yours? Not mine, numbers are numbers.
>>It is an inarguable fact that, despite the supposedly 'progressive' nature of the federal income tax, people in the lower brackets end up paying a larger percentage of their income in taxes than do the wealthy.<<
Please think. All people pay about 23% in indirect taxes for every service and commodity they buy. This is not income tax, it is embedded taxes imposed by governments.
>>Bush's tax cuts may have "benefitted everybody", but those in the bottom half averaged a couple of hundred bucks, while the top tenth averaged over a hundred thousand.<<
1% of zero is zero and 1% of 100 is 1 and 1% of 100,000 is 1,000.
>>And thanks to the Bush era of Crony Capitalism, there will be for the foreseeable future an even larger number of people paying no income tax because they're unemployed.<,
Nor should we expect wages and purchasing power for the average American to increase any time soon. It's no wonder that while Wall Street is declaring the recession over, Main Street is unconvinced.<<
I don’t declare the recession over and in my view not many do.
Happy Nuding.
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Country: USA
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 04/18/2010 : 10:04:18 PM
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The recession is over when there are two quarter-years of growth, even if it is most tiny. The average of the last dozen recessions is that unemployment is worst at, usually, about one year or so AFTER the recession is over. Once the recession stops, it takes most of a year for consumer spending to loosen. Only after that is established is there a need for more employees in production, sales, etc. Then the growth rate needs time to climb back to the point that a recession "feels" over, which may be two years or more after it really ended.
For reasons detailed in previous posts, it takes an average of FOUR YEARS for infrastructure, roads, buildings, factories, bridges, to show up in significant hiring and economic statistics. A large part of the time is spent in budgeting, planning, getting bids, assembling land, finances and purchasing materials to construct with. It is analogous to the lag in speed change after hitting the gas pedal to accelerate. The engine needs time to work.
The American economy works much more quickly than those of Europe's welfare states, and has generated far more growth in income and jobs than Europe. However much of this great expansion of income has been taken in new medical advances, and electronic gizmos like computers, cell phones, and DVDs. Much of the true income growth came from elimination of "grunt" jobs by robotics, similar to the elimination in agriculture of men with scythes walking thru and cutting grain.
Obama's expansion of the welfare state to be more like Europe is an intense job-killer, if allowed to ripen into similar economic decay. A major potential disaster for the average wage-earner.
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NaturistDoc
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Posted - 04/18/2010 : 10:54:41 PM
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The "average wage earner" is already in an ACTUAL disaster. Fact: Wages have been stagnant, i.e., little or no growth for thirty years. Yet worker productivity has increased enormously during that same time. The question becomes: Who benefits from increased worker productivity? Answer: NOT the worker. Since management can squeeze more work out the workers, they need fewer of them; thus the wage stagnation and chronic unemployment. Balataf brings up an interesting point. What with all the gizmos he mentioned, doesn't it seem like the American citizen is viewed more as a consumer than as a producer? It's a bizarre situation when business doesn't need more workers ... but it desperately needs more consumers! But where do you find those consumers when so many people are unemployed, underemployed, facing foreclosure, etc? People can rail all they want about Eurosocialism, but the "conservative alternative" appears to be a third-world economy with a wealthy and corrupt oligarchy running things and the rest of the country getting screwed. (Don't take my word for it. Read "13 Bankers" by Simon Johnston.) Given the choice between Sweden and Honduras, I'd take Sweden any day. More nudists there, too!
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pilot
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Posted - 04/18/2010 : 11:22:00 PM
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"Recession" and "over" are words. Just returned from Desert Hot Springs California where the unemployment rate is counted at 21+% and is certainly higher when counting the underemployed, those who have given up looking for jobs and so on. The unemployment rate in nearby Coachella is 23%.
The pervasive discussion about "Main Street" and "Wall Street" seems to consistently overlook "World Avenue". The bald fact is that labor is cheaper in so many parts of the world, and American purchasers want high quality at low price. The way to recover the American dream is -- as I see it-- to create a workforce second to none such that (global) consumers will have no alternative but to pay a premium for our goods and services. Paradoxically, the "cheap labor countries" send their most talented and promising young to our universities for education. To my mind, the education gap must not only be closed but in fact reversed.
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jbsnc
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Posted - 04/19/2010 : 8:03:56 PM
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>>The pervasive discussion about "Main Street" and "Wall Street" seems to consistently overlook "World Avenue". The bald fact is that labor is cheaper in so many parts of the world, and American purchasers want high quality at low price. The way to recover the American dream is -- as I see it-- to create a workforce second to none such that (global) consumers will have no alternative but to pay a premium for our goods and services. Paradoxically, the "cheap labor countries" send their most talented and promising young to our universities for education. To my mind, the education gap must not only be closed but in fact reversed.<<
On target pilot. If 2 + 2 equals any number that makes you feel good, that society is headed to the dust bin.
Happy Nuding.
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Country: USA
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blackrebel
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Posted - 04/19/2010 : 11:16:52 PM
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Cloward & Piven conspiracy seems to have more reality to it than I thought.
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Country: USA
| Posts: 162 |
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 04/20/2010 : 01:02:12 AM
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American manufacturing in 2007 was 273 percent of what it had been in 1980. But the employment number is only about 35% as many workers. This is similar to the gloom and doom prognotications of 1890s, in which the Populist Revolt was sparked by the equivalent mechanization of farm work. That laid the groundwork for the huge expansion of the 1920s. This is cyclical, and we are in the eighth distinct wave of a profound cycle. called the Kondratieff cycle. The economy should be booming white-hot around 2025, with a rising "roller coaster" til then, if Obamacare, etc. is not allowed to destroy it. What is needed is PATIENCE.
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Edited by - balataf on 04/20/2010 01:04:47 AM |
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NaturistDoc
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Posted - 04/20/2010 : 4:21:38 PM
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Methinks patience is in short supply in America generally, and perhaps particularly in the Tea Party.
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Bill Bowser
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Posted - 04/20/2010 : 7:46:18 PM
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Our politicians are bribing the people with their childrens' grand childrens' and the great grand children's money. Not one of them seems to have even the most tenuous grasp on the fundamentals of economics. They seem to think that there is a political solution to every societal problem. They find it necessary to rush through legislation that they don't even bother to read.
Yeah, right, the Tea Party people are the problem.
Bill in Cincinnati
Nudists are everywhere, but they're hard to identify with their clothes on.
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Country: USA
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jbsnc
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Posted - 04/20/2010 : 9:12:55 PM
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ND wrote "It is an inarguable fact that, despite the supposedly 'progressive' nature of the federal income tax, people in the lower brackets end up paying a larger percentage of their income in taxes than do the wealthy. Bush's tax cuts may have "benefitted everybody", but those in the bottom half averaged a couple of hundred bucks"
Initially your subject was "federal income tax" then your subject seemed to change to "larger percentage of their income in taxes." Two different issues. If you stand by your first subject your stance is laughable and false. Second issue has great merit.
Happy Nuding.
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sailawaybob
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Posted - 04/21/2010 : 10:21:29 AM
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i don't think our country has been more divided since the civil war we are sinking fast and yes republicans are just as much to blame as the democrats, we have become a entitlement state heading down the road to socialism heck we past socialism a while back. what i see with the teaparty is americans just wanting the government to stop intruding into their lives, tell me where you can go without a government camera sitting on a post watching you. and yes i don't want the government telling me what to buy when i get my health insurance i'm a big boy figured it out years ago and why isn't americans a little upset that their legislator didn't read the bill before voting for it, would you buy a car or house without reading a contract - i wouldn't. ok i'll get back to being a nudist, probably get arrested for that to...
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Tea Party Ten Point Platform
