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balataf
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Posted - 02/21/2011 : 6:55:13 PM
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The Irgun and Stern Gang primarily fought the British, only very secondarily against Arabs. The King David was British army HQ.
The lands settled before the 1948 war were purchased openly, often empty desert that they developed into settlements.
Which agreement would you have rejected? 1048 or 1999? The point is that Israel was being attacked in all SEVEN of these wars. The areas outside the basic Israel were all acquired from Arqb aggression in defending itself.
This is not to defend all Israeli actions, but when you are faced with continuing terrorism and suicide bombers, a tighter ontrol is reasonable. Had the Palestinians ever negotiated in good faith, things might have been different.
One sided conversations don't work. If Egypt and Jordan could have peace agreements, so should the Palestinians. Yet they continued doing irrational things like printing maps on which Israel did not exist. (Israel always published accurate maps.)
Since israel always fought defensively, I have trouble seeing them as more predatory than the haters trying to eliminate them.
In Politicometrics, there is an essay comparing modern Israel with the almost identical history of the Crusaders' Kingdom of Jerusalem.
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Edited by - balataf on 02/21/2011 6:58:07 PM |
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Warmskin
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 Posted - 02/27/2011 : 04:20:59 AM
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There is no question that the western Mideast has been a battleground.
That actions of the Irgun and Stern gangs included the infamous mass assassinations of innocent Palestinian families. I believe this to be reprehensible, and yet was planned in advance. The gangs never pretended otherwise, and one of their leaders expressed the desire to eliminate the Palestinian population, claiming that there were closer to animals than they were to the Zionists in their very nature.
The land carved out for Israel, as far as what I have read, was more seized from the Palestinians than it was void of any population. Golda Meir claimed there was no such people as the Palestinians. If they were not people, then one might consider that Meir actually thought the Palestinians were.
The terrorism committed against the Palestinians was the chief method, early on, for vacating Palestine of the Palestinians. There has never been a question that Israel has little but contempt for them. Considering the Palestinians, in the main, have been and are living in concentration camps. Israel has come right out and said that the Palestinians are being kept in a state of bare survival, in what must be the worst treatment of people that I know of, although equals may be found with the Kurds, folks in Tibet and Nepal.
To my way of seeing things, there is nothing to be gained by being an ally of ISrael, if they insist on conducting themselves in this manner. To the contrary, Israel is causing us to be hated for our financing the slow destruction of the hapless Palestinians. This is the worst posture for America to have taken since the days of near elimination of Native Americans. If we see the horrible treatment of the Native Americans, why not observe the same actions of another state, Israel.
Before the advent of Zionism, the Palestinians and Jewish communities had relative peace in Palestine, at least compared to today's standards. Unfortunately, the Zionist movement put an end to this relative peace. Ugliness crept in when the Zionists took ascendency.
The techniques used by the Zionists such as intimidating innocent and docile Palestinians away from their homes, and later declaring those homes abandoned, strikes at every decency known to a civilized world. Palestinian homes have demolished ever since, with the same delicacy that Hitler and Stalin established their respective empires. There is no moral right to demolishing the homes of innocents, and methodically making it purposely difficult to have some kind of level of humanity that is quite modest by Israeli standards.
Water, nutrition, sanitary conditions are deliberatly withheld, to a great extent, by Israel. Why does Israel take part in this barbaric activity of decades in practice? As I mentioned earlier, Israel dumps their raw sewage into the East Bank, and possibly the Gaza strip. Why? Does Israel know that many nations know this, and why do they wonder why they are so hated, and America along with them?
I am puzzled as to why this is. I guess chutzpah might explain this, but I believe they are a state gone mad, and so far, no one has said no to them. Certainly not America who regularly caves in to them.
When it comes to pure military power, the Palestinians are a joke compared to Israel. I've never heard of the Palestinian Air Force, save for the pathetic home-made rockets they fire off at ISrael, after they have taken all they can of their human rights being constantly violated by Israel. Yet, Israel says they are under siege and are victims.
Operation Cast Lead was one of the last straws in the opinion of the world. 1500 Palestinians killed, and among them 150 Christians. I guess this was to show off what a mad dog (the late Moshe Dyan's words) Israel is.
While I don't admire a lot of what the UN does, at least I have agreed with their proclamations of Israel's innumerable crimes against humanity, not to mention their war crimes committed against the USA.
I admire the courageous attempts to get food and medicine to the Palestinians by people of good will from various countries. I am for the underdog in almost all cases. Israel is no underdog; they are the fourth largest military in the world. I also admire the Palestinians for their resolute posture toward defending the homeland against the hatred of them by Israel.
At some point, the world wiil have had enough of the treatment of the helpless Palestinians. This is the point in time where I will have great pity for the innocent life in Israel. There are some of Israelis who go to Palestine to help the people there build new homes. There are also Israeli soldiers who are completely against what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. They are shocked by what they are told to do by their superiors.
Among the most outrageous things that Israel does is to use illegal weapons against Palestine and Lebanon. Cluster bombs in strictly civilian areas of Lebanon, under the Israeli philosophy of killing everyone, by claiming group punishment of mostly innocents. Israel lately used white phosphorous bombs, as well as depleted uranium against the helpless civlian population of Palestine. That is a war crime, as viewed by civilized nations. Another objectionable thing that happened in "Operation Cast Lead" was the way Israeli soldiers told a large groups of Palestinians to go inside a large building to be safe from falling bombs. A short while later, that building was bombed with precision, and all were killed inside it.
It is the philosophy that governs a people or its government. Take, say, Japan, in WWII. Their bushido philosophy told them to die before surrendering, or to lose their life to prevent dishonor. In the same way, Israel has their philosophy -- eliminate the Palestinians. Menachem Begin, and Ariel Sharon, the butchers of Palestine expressed this philosophy in clear language, and their state has been acting on it ever since those early violent days.
One can do a google search of "Breaking the silence." That will bring you to a list of websites that tell of Israeli soldiers who are disgusted with what they are told to do. Often they are told to kill, kill, kill, no matter how innocent a Palestinian is. I admire their courage to speak out. They are the only hope the Israeli people have in survival. Sometimes they are called "refuseniks."
One example of very strange bedfellows I have experienced is agreement with Dr. Norman Finkelstein. He has pointed out the many flaws in Zionistic thinking in Israel. He condemns the treatment of the Palestinian people. Of course, that does not endear him to the rank and file Zionists, or the neocons. I wholeheartedly disagree with Dr. Finkelstein about economics and government, being the libertarian that I am. He has many videos on youtube, and his views are ones that make a person think.
Perhaps my points of view differ so much with a lot of Americans is that I cut off my cablevision and printed journalism years ago. Now, I rely on independent news and opinion sources, but adamently reject any sites that come even vaguely close to hatred of one group or another. Who needs that in their life?
My own observations are -- to have good neighbors, be a good neighbor. If that does not work, try another place where it works better.
I'm all for Israeli citizens the world over, having a homeland where they are safe. I would have picked somewhere where there were plenty of natural resources. That could have been done in western Africe. Buy land and make sure the native population is fairly compensated for their land and resources. It's similar to free enterprise where each party comes out ahead.
One could ask, what state would you want to live in -- Israel or Palestine? I believe that every person would answer Israel. Who would want to live in a country that was being oppressed by another one? To me, that says an awful lot.
You have me at a big disadvantage, my friend. I am not sure if you are reffering to a UN agreement 1048 and 1999. Would that be correct on my part? If not, I need to do a lot of homework!!! Hahaha.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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balataf
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Posted - 03/02/2011 : 04:53:14 AM
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Warmskin, Your rant ignores the primary facts of the situation. First, there were hundreds of thousands of Moslem and Christian Palestinians who remained, and were not attacked if they remained peaceful. They became full voting Israeli citizens, as did the Druzes. The Grand Mufti, (who spent WW2 in Berlin,) called on the Palestinians to evacuate as refugees to create free fire zones. Israeli radio and media called for them to remain. At this point there are about 1,750,000 or so.
The demolition of homes used for terror attacks is a good example of a just policy of proper self-defense.
The cluster bombs in Lebanon are well-documented. Hezbollah set uo rocke emplacements inside regular civilian neighborhoods. Counter-battery fire hitting those areas is quite proper, as it was in Ghaza. Please tell me how firing at enemy artillery is a war crime, even with WP.
"Buy land and make sure the native population is fairly compensated for their land and resources." This is what happened.
Remember that the original Israel fit your description of land freely sold to them, beginning around 1885. Why is that different from you idea of doing it in Africa? The error was in the forces that needlessly attacked them in SEVEN WARS. NONE of those were started by Israel. It would seem that that is a good example of a good neighbor.
The original land was peacefully purchased, much of it before World War ONE, while the Turks still ruled the area. As I said, they mostly purchased vacant desert the Bedouins did not want, then settled, planted and irrigated it, peacefully.
Arafat needlessly prolonged this mess when he rejected a fair peace agreement in 1999.
Sorry for the typo. The UN Agreement was 1947. When the Arab aggression was defeated, Israel was bigger by 25% or so. That did not need to happen, as they did not need to attack the Israeli people.
Ghaza has the potential to be a center like Hong Kong, Singapore, Dubai or AbuDhabi. But, in order to do that, the Ghazan people need to form commercial partnerships with available firms, whether European, Chinese, Israeli and Islamic. As long as they languish in self-imposed misery, they will get nowhere. Several times the Israelis have amply shown they would rather let Ghaza go and not bother with it. Each time, instead, groups like Hamas have spoiled it repeatedly with rocket attacks, suicide bombers and other gratuitious evil.
If I were in charge, I would put all food imports to Ghaza under a 3-way commission. This would be half Israeli, a quarter Fatah, and a quarter Hamas, pending Palestinian elections after a six months campaign. Make sure that the Ghazans all realize then that this is there chance to end the 63 years of conflict. After 5 years of joint administration, complete Israeli withdrawal.
I'd make a generous offer. But if the Ghazans wrecked it again with another needless attack, I'd justifiably completely flatten whatever area or area had allowed the stupid mistake.
Again, let me point out that the Neocons are likely to be frozen out, and have no credible candidate on the horizon for 2012, being totally eclipsed by more populist types. I do not see them as likely to regain much, if any, influence. Especially so if their Hawkish Tea Party opposition grows. People like Palin, DeMint, Bachmann, etc, have no use for the Necons at all.
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rahel
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Posted - 03/02/2011 : 05:32:51 AM
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Warmskin, I think you should stop being one sided and realize that the Arabs (extremely rich) kept the palestinians in a state of extreme poverty, while the like of Arafat had a swiss bank account and his mistress or wife leaves off the money Arafat stole from his own people.
Do not forget all of the Jewish from Arab lands who were forced to leave the country they lived for centuries, without any money leaving all their assets in the arab lands, and of course settled in other countries starting with nothing. I KNOW, I AM ONE OF THEM.
Balataf, you know your facts. Bravo.
As French is my mother tongue, my English might not be perfect.
Rahel
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Warmskin
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Posted - 03/03/2011 : 04:52:22 AM
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I can readily say that Palestine has been stupid in some of their actions. They have missed great opportunities in appealing to the world.
Still, that any state can go into another and dictate terms is something I would disagree with as being something that is good. If Canada did the same things to us, we would complain. Further, I do remember that the Palestinians have been deliberately kept in a state of absolute bare bones living standards, and this admission came from Israeli leaders.
As I said, I'm all for Israelis having a safe place to live. They have been through enough. The UN either could or should have stuck to their plan of dividing up Palestine so that both peoples could live there, but with international intervention to keep the peace.
As to the peace initiative of 1999, Palestine was going to be divided into many pieces, with the Israelis would be in charge of who can go from one part to another.
A member of Parliament, a Jewish member, criticized Israel's acitivities. He stated that his grandmother's home was brutally broken into by Nazi soldiers. They shot her. Very sick troops!! The member or Parliament went on to say that the sadisitic killing of his grandmother should not be the basis for the Israel army killing an helpless Palestinian elderly woman, or words to that effect. I wish I knew the name of this fellow, but what he said was perhaps more significant than his name. I would ask the readers to please watch this short speech from this heartfelt member of Parliament. Here is the link to that speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8
I fully agree with this gentleman, and feel the greatest sympathy for what befell his family. What he says is not actually a rant, but he sadly tells his fellow members what he knows of the current conditions in Palestine. He talks quite reasonably, and has said some of the same things I have said, and no doubt is far, far more knowledgeable than I about Israel. He is also more polished than I.
Other dissidents tell the same thing, such as Uri Avery, Norman Finkelstein, and others. They are upset with the Israeli leaders. Peace advocates from Israel come down to Palestine and help them build new homes -- the ones that were crushed by Israel for no appreciable reason. It's hard to think of women and children being big threats to fully armed foreign soldiers. There is too much evidence that the innocents in Palestine are not getting a fair deal.
Also, it is against international laws to invade a county and take its land, which is what has happened to the Palestinians. Their land, what little is left of it, does not belong to any other country. It's the thinking of what went into the laws that govern our international behavior. The foreign settlements in Palestine are illegal. The same would be true if Canada did the same thing to us.
It can be regretted that all sides did not have some say in the resettling of the Jewish people in Palestine. It was a forgone conclusion that they would be there. The boundaries set up by the UN should have some bearing on this, otherwise everything is a continuous fight. It were better if there were a UN guarantee of safety for both sides, if they want back to the boundaries of the late 1940s, or simply divide all the land in half, like old King Solomon would have done.
I would restore the Palestinian half, and make it possible for them to have farms, businesses, school, hospitals for all Palestinians, and the like. If one is busy tending to his work, there is not much time to rebel, or reason to. Maybe there should be tall walls between the two states, in this hypothetical case. The UN could have soldiers in each country.
As for my rant, which I sometimes get into, I was only quoting Israeli leaders and their intentions, and those of other more knowledgeable people. I can get frustrated with one group being cruel to another, regardless of who the parties are involved.
As to the Tea Party, goodness only knows how they will grow and evolve. Will they become modern versions of Calvin Coolidge (we could use a silent politician these days!! hahaha) and a Barry Goldwater? Or will they lean toward the objectives of the McCain (100 years of war), and Palin? Those are the two distinct directions they could take. Or, they could be somewhat moderate, like an Eisenhower. 2012 is mighty far away. It should be exciting. Maybe Romney will break through the Mormon "barrier" as did JFK did for his faith. He seems to be strong in polls. Or, maybe it will be a dark horse. That is what I like about politics; it's always a novelty each election.
The GOP is taking on the appearance of being a bike at a stop sign, trying to keep its balance. The Tea Party can be an immense help to the GOP, especially if it can force the GOP to abandon, completely, the follies of the Bush adminstration and his advisers, neocons all. They trashed the GOP in 2006 and 2008. I hope you're right about their era being over. We can't afford them.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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rahel
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Posted - 03/03/2011 : 12:01:46 PM
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James,
I still am convinced that you do not know all the facts. The Israelis did not invade Palestine, they only took over for security reasons, and the land would have been returned against security. See what happened to Gaza, as soon as it was returned, the Hamas (terrorist group) took over and for eight years did not stop shelling the civilians Israelis, whereas when the Israelis attacked back after eight years of constant shelling, they sent flyers to the civilians to leave the buildings. But the coward Hamas used their civilians as a front. I could go on and on, on this subject.
Rahel
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Warmskin
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Posted - 03/03/2011 : 8:39:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rahel
James,
I still am convinced that you do not know all the facts. The Israelis did not invade Palestine, they only took over for security reasons, and the land would have been returned against security. See what happened to Gaza, as soon as it was returned, the Hamas (terrorist group) took over and for eight years did not stop shelling the civilians Israelis, whereas when the Israelis attacked back after eight years of constant shelling, they sent flyers to the civilians to leave the buildings. But the coward Hamas used their civilians as a front. I could go on and on, on this subject.
Rahel
Apparently, you did not view the video I posted in my last post. This the kind of people I get my facts from, as opposed to getting it from American media. The less one relies on filtered press, the closer to the facts one gets. I turned off television years ago, and when I did, I opened myself up to many different sources of new and commentary. I'm ever grateful for that.
To say the Palestinians are attacking Israel with dominance would not be factual. To say that Israel unlawfully occupies Palestine is the unvarnished truth.
I'm not taking sides as much as I have a strong preference for fairness. I used to be a big Israel fan, but after "graduating" from the filtered American press, I saw things quite differently.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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rahel
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Posted - 03/03/2011 : 8:56:18 PM
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First of all why do you sign James Madison, while in your profile your name is different.
I did listen to this person, and in the same time I have another non Jewish British Colonel who spoke up vehemently for Israel.
Regarding the American Media, I do not agree with you. It is not for Israel. Just listen to Christian Amampur (something like that). she is very biased when she reports from the Palestinian side, not too much from the Israeli side.
If I find the link, I will report it to you. Also Israel is not invading Palestine......
Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do not agree at all with the speech from this English Jewish MP.
Rahel
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Warmskin
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Posted - 03/04/2011 : 01:57:47 AM
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It's a matter of listening to both sides, and then taking the side that is being the fairest.
If Israel did not invade, and is not invading Palestine, why do they have so many heavily armed soldiers in land that is not theirs? Further, Israel keeps building illegal settlements in Palestine. Because Palestine is a legal entity, by international standards, the Israeli juggernaut of putting in unlawful settlements in Palestine is an offense, just as it would be if Canadians built settlement in the USA, and then claiming that land as Canadian.
We might ask if Nazi Germany took parts of France and built settlements there, would that be okay? If not, then the same standards apply to the Israelis seizing land from Palestine and then settling on that land.
The UN has been overwhelmingly against this sort of activity, except that the USA keeps bailing out Israeli militants with a veto.
American media is heavily filtered, and provably so. I found that out after I stopped watching American TV for my news source. I much prefer independent news that has credibility.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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Warmskin
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Posted - 03/04/2011 : 02:09:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by rahel
First of all why do you sign James Madison, while in your profile your name is different.
This is a rather trivial comment. You see, what I have at the bottom of each message I send out is called a "signature." It is a quote from James Madison, the chief architect of the US Constitution. You might want to go to wikipedia and do a search on him. I realize that you are from a different country, if I remember correctly, so you may not be familiar with his work. Very important figure in the history and creation of the USA. He was quite correct, wars do tend to take away our freedoms.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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rahel
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Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:37:12 PM
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You are really stubborn, ISRAEL NEVER INVADED PALESTINE. Read Balataf previous comments, you might learn something. Regarding James Madison, it could be trivial, and yes I was born in Morocco and I am a French Citizen and yes, I did not know James Madison.
Israel only occupied certain territories for its securities.
Go back to history, and check about USSR, Russia, and the likes who did INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES, and never returned anything. Whereas Israel returned some occupied land for peace, and see what they got in return "Gaza" their civilians being shelled continuously for eight years, until Israel said enough is enough. How would you like if Canada shelled the US for eight years and the US did not defend itself....
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balataf
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Posted - 03/04/2011 : 1:05:15 PM
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Warmskin, in one sense, Israel did not invade the Palestinian territories, in that it acquired occupation only thru defensive maneuvering, and there was no attack by Israel prior to the Arab invasions of their land. The problem is several different usages of the word "invade". Take an example of the WWII retaking of Guam. By one definition we "invaded" our own land to liberate the American citizens who lived there, by another we could not "invade" our own land.
The US military occupied Iceland during World War II, at the invitation of its democratic government, yet we did not invade. Would you say we invaded Belgium when we (with the Brits) drove the Germans out?
I will agree on the illegal status of the West Bank settlements. They are not defensible long-range, and are probably just going to be bargaining chips in later dealings, if the Palestinians can ever get their act together to negotiate.
Strangely, the biggest current threat to Israel would be if the Palestinian quasi-government simply resigned, leaving Israel with the gigantic expense and headaches of policing and administering the West Bank and Ghaza.
By the way, I read and watch a significant amount of non-US news content, including Al-Jazeera, and many items chosen by Google News with other perspectives on American happenings. I've done this when able, since my college days in the 60s.
Warmskin, let me ask this question. when Israel was needlessly attacked and defended itself. How would YOU have handled the problems? Israel preferred peace, as in the treaties with Egypt and Jordan, and has not been aggressive. When Hezbollah used massive rocketry and artillery based in civilian areas, against Israeli home territory, how should Israel have fought back?
Israel's actual tactics were closely targeted counter-battery fire. If Hezbollah fired from residential buildings, that is not Israels fault. What would YOU have done?
Israel's strategy of retaliating by wrecking all the bridges, sewers, water plants, and other infrastructure was a way of avoiding civilian neighborhoods and casualties. Excellent humanitarian thinking? If not, how would YOU have responded to such an unprovoked attack?
Egypt knows, by the way, that Israel has the capacity to destroy the Aswan Dam, which would send
a wall of water several hundred feet high, (maybe 70 meters) all the way down to the Mediterranean. This would leave maybe 40 million homeless, destroy several years worth of food for 80 million, totally ravage the Egyptian infrastructure, contaminate the Nile area as drinking water, and not least take away the Dam's electric production. My guess is that a sudden dam failure might leave ten to twenty million dead within the first two years and a continuing toll for decades.
Actually, about 15 nations have the capacity to do so, and it could happen accidentally, too.
What a cheery prospect to have to worry about. As an ecology disaster with several dimensions, the US rejected building the project, and the Soviets went for it. Many aspects were very poorly planned, including that the porous underlying rock was not really suitable. Ouch!
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rahel
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Posted - 03/04/2011 : 1:08:16 PM
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thank you Balataf, you know your history, and you are patient.
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Warmskin
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Posted - 03/05/2011 : 04:15:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by rahel
thank you Balataf, you know your history, and you are patient.
Rahel, in my off-line I am always told I'm unbelievably patient. I teach senior citizen who have never used a computer, to use them. That takes almost infinite patience. They often ask me how I put up with them, and I always answer that it took no patience at all, and I praise them for their progress. I had one student who was 93 this year. I think that takes a modest amount of patience. I do this for very little money. I enjoy working with them.
I can only speak about what I have read. I have listened to educated people from various sides. Again, I side with fairness for all. If you don't like the facts I have read from authoritative sources, such as visitors to the West Bank and Gaza who have seen the horrible living conditions there, what can I honestly do? Some of the visitors were Israelis, as well as Americans, and Arabs. All three groups have said much the same thing. These folks are more contemporary in their observations, but I have also read many quotes, and newspaper articles about the earlier days of that embattled area. The quotes took my breath away, and I found them quite offensive.
Since no average people can have all the facts, we are a bit like prisoners of what we don't know. To say that I have no facts would be quite inaccurate. Decades ago, I was quite ignorant about the Mideast, because my attention was turned toward Vietnam (remember the draft era?), and communism. I was, though a big Israeli fan. I still hope the people there can enter into a situation where war can change into peace for all people's sake.
There is enough blame to go around in that area. Stupid homemade rockets being casually fired at innocent Israelis on the one hand. Counter that with illegal white phosphorous bombs dropped on mostly innocent Palestinians, on the other. All that will solved nothing. Maybe it's time for the USA to make a bold peace initiative. That would be more productive than going to war.
If one wants peace, than it has to be worked for. War only decides who dies and who lives. I'm for international justice in the Israeli-Palestinian area. Sounds odd, eh? LOL. No one was born to suffer. We are here to enjoy the life that was given to us. There must be a better way than what we now have. Progress starts with a vision, and by rising above the problems of the day. More of the same is insufficient.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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Warmskin
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Posted - 03/05/2011 : 04:56:59 AM
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Hi Balataf,
Here is the link to a photo showing Palestine shrinking over the years.
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jan2009/shrinking_palestine_1.jpg
It's interesting to compare the UN Plan, which seemed fair to both sides, to how it is today. We should remember that the little bit of remaining Palestine has many Israeli troops making life in Palestine quite miserable. Illegal settlements are ubiquitous in the small parts of what is left in Palestine. One could possibly envision if the reverse were true, and Palestinian soldiers were all over Israel. I'm sure you and I would not want that.
I would believe that no nation can take over a foreign land to be part of a defensive strategy. We could think of, say, Mexico, taking over Arizona under the theory of Mexico trying to protect itself. The Soviets took over Eastern Europe, and Nazi Germany took over a lot of Europe. They could have claimed they were doing that to defend themselves, although that would be a loooong stretch.
I don't believe either Israel or Palestine has a "divine" right to be where they are, but their human rights should be respected by each other. I don't believe it to be the case that Israeli innocents suffer as much as the Palesinian innocents do. The wealth and standard of living of Israel will probably always outshine that of the Palestinians.
The thing that pulls my chain, as it were, is the constant presence of Israeli troops in a state that is not theirs. That is a severe thorn in the side of that area. An American could imagine, say, Chinese troops harrassing our neighborhoods with tanks and armed soldiers.
If Israel wants peace, and don't we all, it's going to have to cut some deals, and unfortunately the US is going to have to defend that hypothetical treaty, because of our responsiblity for some of the mess.
What would be my solution? Now there is the $64,000 question!!! I would divide the aggegrate territories of Israel and Palestine. Give each entity equal value in the land and coast. Take the troops out of Iraq, and put them in Israel/Palestine to enforce the peace, and build walls between the two states. I'd put billions of $$ into rebuilding Palestinian farms, schools, hospitals, and other peaceful enterprises. That would restore them to what they had before 1947, as far as ways to make a living were concerned. I'd stop all foreign aid to all nations in that area.
The USA would guarantee the existence of both states, and both states would be treated equally under international law. No special privileges for either one of them. That would instill some self-discpline in that area. A state that can never be told "No" is a spoiled state that is capable of doing anything - like a spoiled child.
Peacekeeping is probably a lot cheaper than conducting war. That is but one of many reasons that our object should be peace without any nation losing face or land. Whatever we do, we will have to live with the consequences of our actions and attitudes.
Perhaps I'm a sucker for a happy ending, but sanguine to know that it won't be easy. Perhaps I'm for the underdog in a fight. Hard to say what motivates me, except for that.
I'm glad to hear that you read other sources of news, Balataf. I gave up on a pure American diet of the usual suspects in news reporting. Oddly enough, I find myself siding with liberals, in this instance only. Other than this decades old conflict, I would not agree with them on anything else. There are other times, I can't figure out the sides in this conflict. Some folks straddle the fence, while some are highly partisan, and there are the folks like me who want to see things go in a much different direction.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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| Posts: 1964 |
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Tea Party Ten Point Platform
