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HomeNudist
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Posted - 12/18/2010 : 5:01:34 PM
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It never ceases to amaze me, the ones who claim to be the most tolerant of all viewpoints and accepting of all groups, are the very ones that react with hatred and attempt to suppress any conservative viewpoint.
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Country: USA
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openess
Forum Member
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Posted - 12/19/2010 : 07:14:04 AM
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The urge to suppress an opposing point of view reveals a lack of confidence in your own.
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Country: USA
| Posts: 83 |
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balataf
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Posted - 12/19/2010 : 3:51:15 PM
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It is very interesting to watch several hours of BOTH Fox News and MSNBC, the arch-rivals on an everyday basis for a half year. I've just done this.
There seems to be one major difference in that Fox has a rather greater willingness to debate with high-power spokesmen of opposing viewpoints. Also, the MSNBC crowd shows more intense and pervasive anger in general, with less light humor.
Both Parties loyalists have a deeply warped vision of their opposition.
The Democrats' leadership is not primarly corrupt union bosses, Black leaders who cynically wqnt their constituents to be dependent on government and ecofreaks who want to destroy industries.
The Republicans have no particular love for big corporations or rich individuals, and are seldom religious fanatics. Yet these fun-house mirror images remain, and are used to mislead average voters.
The Republicans, particulalry the Tea Party faction represents the middle class, with much of the upper-middle. Meanwhile, the Democrats are middle class, with emphasis on the lower-middle. There's plenty of room to get along, with most Independents also middle-class.
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Country: USA
| Posts: 661 |
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NaturistDoc
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Posted - 12/20/2010 : 08:26:39 AM
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Hear, hear! Plenty of room indeed, if only the wackjobs of the extreme left and extreme right would stop sucking all of the oxygen out of the room. As best as I can tell, the political 'philosophies' of those two networks rarely rise above the level of "Four legs good, two legs bad!"
I am in awe of - and more than a little concerned for - anyone who could sit through several hours a day of Fox and MSNBC for half a year. Have a care, balataf, lest overexposure to that toxic nonsense addle your brain.
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Country: USA
| Posts: 1054 |
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balataf
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Posted - 12/22/2010 : 01:13:03 AM
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ND, Yes, I've got too much time. I do about eight hours per day divided among Fox, MSNBC, Bloomberg, CNN and ABC. But I am very largely housebound due to amputee complications, and will often go for several weeks without venturing out.
Regarding two legs vs four: That might depend on other factors. My cats prefer four. But I've spend fifty years, since early Junior High School, in careful study of pairs of legs, overwhelmingly those of human females. I have yet to reach any final conclusion, but I do manage to keep on studying, with occasional breaks to howl at the Moon.
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Country: USA
| Posts: 661 |
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Warmskin
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 Posted - 12/28/2010 : 01:44:01 AM
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Television, like the Tea Party has lost its clear-sightedness.
The Tea Party has been co-opted as has the news business. That caused me to call up the cable company and have my cable disconnected. I've been better off for it.
The Tea Party has been taken over by the Neo-conservatives, and by definition is a future problem, rather than a future solution. When one sees Sarah Palin and her ilk take over the Tea Party movement, the Party it over, and it's time to turn out the lights.
The neo-conservative got trounced in 2006 and 2008. 2010 was not a vote to bring them back. It happened because of the rightful fears of the excesses of corporate socialism, and just plain socialism of Obama and his acolytes.
Maybe there should be a party that is pro-constition, pro-sound money, and anti-policeman of the whole world. That would sell to most people, thus it will never see the light of day.
Other than that, I remain policitally optimistic, I think, or on the other hand, maybe not. I hope that is crystal clear. 
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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Country: USA
| Posts: 1964 |
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sailawaybob
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Posted - 12/28/2010 : 7:52:27 PM
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i think the teaparty did a lot of good in 2010, it woke up a lot of republicans that if we don't like the liberals wasting our money we definately don't like republicans doing it. these earmark backroom lobbyiest loving politicians on both sides have to go. i believe 2011 leading up to 2012 elections are going to either save or break our republic and i think the teaparty will have a lot to do with us being saved. yes there are some in it for the money but there are a lot of folks like your neighbor wanting to stop the socialist/communist from taking us over. 2010 elections proved that now we will watch and see..
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Country: USA
| Posts: 1268 |
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Warmskin
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Posted - 12/28/2010 : 9:52:50 PM
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Interesting points, Bob. I would loved for the Tea Party to have remained independent of any party. Parties tend to dilute ideas and compromise on purpose.
I do think that parties of any stripe cannot tolerate a big group of people who are intense and of one accord (not necessarily the Honda Accord, though).
I always think of a group of people like the Tea Party as like a pristine snow-fed springs. As time goes on, and they head downstream, pollution enters into the waters, until only a political party would drink from it. The dirty secret is that a political party is the one who polluted the spring-fed water in the first place.
I'd like to see the Tea Party remain completely independent from any party. If a party wants votes from the Tea guys, let that party shift its platform toward the Tea folks. As it is now, the politicians are trying to herd the Tea Party away from its original ooncept and into the political party's machinations.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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Country: USA
| Posts: 1964 |
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balataf
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Posted - 12/29/2010 : 03:00:15 AM
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I think that it is more accurate to say that the Tea Party mostly took over the Republicans, more so than the other way around. Tea Party basic activists had more Independents, while those Republicans who got involved tended to work thru their own Party organization. This is according to the massive NY Times investigation last spring.
Rather than politicians "herding" voters, the voters eagerly group under the banners of similar-thinkers as they run against other viewpoints in primaries. That is what the TP, or any viewpoint must do! You can't carry your ideas into practice without winning primaries and elections !!!
But the pristine state of a party's viewpoint is incompatible with attracting marginal voters to win such an election. There is a balance needed in having enuf diversity of opinions to win and govern, while retaining a strong basis of core values to carry the ongoing organization. If you had to agree with the totality of any candidate's positions to vote for them, how many thousand tiny parties would be necessary?
Europe is evolving into a basic six-party system, and the parties shift alliances from election to election. American politics is based on two very wide coalitions with two types of others: "Flash" parties like 1968 George Wallace, 1980 John Anderson and 1992-96 Ross Perot, with the other being ideologic splinters like the Greens and Libertarians, that go on for decades.
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Edited by - balataf on 12/29/2010 03:03:44 AM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 661 |
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HomeNudist
Forum Member
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Posted - 12/29/2010 : 2:37:51 PM
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The Tea Party is not so much a Political Party as it is a Movement. In reality it is closer to compare it to the Civil Rights movement in the '60s. There is no central Committee, no elected leadership, it's core platform is not even very unified. Just like the Civil Rights movement had MLK, J. Jackson, Malcom X, Rosa Parks, Al Sharpton, etc. there are a number of standout people in the Tea party each striving for some semblance of control.
The Tea Party movement is in fact a sizable number of cats that refuse to be herded. The closest to a "unifying message" is telling the major Party's "If you want our votes - conform to our desires". Be it lower taxes, smaller Government, more personal freedom, less big brother, whatever.
I think the reason both the major parties are attacking the Tea Party movement as hard as they are is because it is a growing block of voters that will not submit to the status quo. A block of voters they cannot control.
The bottom line is it is all about control. Will the Government control the people, or will the people control the Government?
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Country: USA
| Posts: 182 |
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 12/29/2010 : 6:41:36 PM
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Homenudist said:
The bottom line is it is all about control. Will the Government control the people, or will the people control the Government?
Apply this to Obamacare! This is the basic question about the nature of American society: whether the people will be the servants of the government.
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Edited by - balataf on 12/29/2010 6:42:42 PM |
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Country: USA
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sailawaybob
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Posted - 12/30/2010 : 02:17:23 AM
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i think that if the teaparty trys to form a third party we are doomed they will only hurt conservatives and give the progressives a easy win, i prefer that they shake up the republican party and put the big spenders in their place and show them that they will be voted out to. we need the teaparty to be strong in 2012 so our great country won't fall but we need to find a person who is electable i like mccain and i like dole but neither one shined as electable, the conservatives needs someone that will awaken the sleeping america.
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Country: USA
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skylane
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Posted - 01/01/2011 : 08:12:46 AM
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Gee,I didn't realize there were so many consevative type nudists!
Didn't expect to hear politics discussed here at all.Is there nothing
else to talk about in the exciting world of nude?Probably safe to say
that everyone wants peace and prosperity and lower taxes for themselves
including those who hate the rich and want to bleed them as much as possible.
But everyone sure wants their medicare and social security dont they?
Not a whole lot of difference in what Congress did with social security
than Bernie Madoff did with his Ponzi schemes.It is broke.The US is broke
and the tip of the iceberg has just been sited.Assume the crash position!
And to all of you who really hate somebody with a few more dollars than you
I say-Go ask a poor man for a job and see how far that goes!
Skylane
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Warmskin
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Posted - 01/02/2011 : 8:40:40 PM
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Anything that begins with a few people and spreads out is going to be much cleaner than when it is gotten hold of by a politician. Does anyone really respect most politicians? Look at the approval rating of Congress. Many in Congress are actual criminals. Now compare that to the small group of people who originated the Tea Party. I'd bet on the Tea Party, in its original concept over neoconservative's new version of the Tea Party.
Philosophy is the origin of how we do things. Philosophy is pure at its inception, unless it is something rather unsavory from the start.
It's hard for me to believe that politicians are suddenly concerned, in their hearts, about spending, deficits, taxes, etc. They look for votes, and if the growing Tea Party is the new vox humana, then fine if our "esteemed politicians" will shift their attention to the voters in matters like the Tea Party. You can bet that if another voice came up, they'd pay attention to that, too.
We don't have that many men and women of principle in Congress of the White House. They drift wherever the winds take them. However, I cannot believe that our politicians have always held to the shifting Tea Party demands.
Ron Paul has very high standards, and sticks to them, but look at what the rest of the opportunistic GOP folks have done to him. He's ideas were first much like the Tea Party. Then Sarah Palin, and her ilk, dived in with her flaming neoconservative ideals and latched onto that movement. Now it's big spending on wars around the world, and world empire. That is not Tea Party stuff, but people can be herded. They always have been.
I see the Tea Party as having been started on a more Ron Paul-ish tone, and has been re-directed over to the neoconservative establishment. I have my own ideas about this, and have watched this movement. I was quite enthralled by it at first. Then it changed. The Tea Party had some of its members consider a run against Ron Paul. That is how much change there has been.
I still think my analory runs quite true. By the time the establishment has had its way with a movement, the pollution has set in. By establishment, I do not mean only the folks in Congress or the White House; I mean the pundits, press, movers and shakers behind the scenes.
I can imagine that the 2012 GOP candidate will be a big spending neo type. Anything else will not be considered by the establishment. The GOP is slow to learn, and the years 2006 and 2008 were prime examples. I heard a talking head program today, and the GOP is said to have as its front runners people like Romney (100 years of war), and other top neoconservatives. You can only try to sell Edsel type politicians for so long.
I'm trying to connect the Tea Party to the mainstream GOP, but that does not compute. Not until the GOP runs mostly Tea Party candidates of substance, will they actually have a claim of congruence with the Tea Party.
Romney is too much like FDR, with the former's government health care program, and endless spending on de facto war on civilian populations on the other side of the world. That is not the original concept of the Tea Party, but there is a great chance that the GOP will stiff the Tea Party in 2012 for the most part.
Sadly, some of the Tea Party candidates did not defeat their opponents. They first need to go for the local offices, and gather some experience that could propel them to higher offices. I.e., you need a solid, recognizable name to win higher office, on average.
It's a conflict of visions -- big government spending that the GOP has now adopted, or a lean, thrifty GOP that will end all the wars, reduce social spending, swear off any more empire-building that we have today, and re-instate the philosopy of Goldwater. The GOP has typically been the ones who ended the Democrat wars (Korea, Vietnam, Old Yugoslavia). The war at all cost mentality of the new GOP is against the merits of the Tea Party, as it first was.
Soon enough, there will be major problems that will change the governmental landscape, and our money system, but that is another topic. I only say this because what we say here will not be much of an issue based on the eventual falling over of what we thought would always be here for us. I'm not sure if even all offices were to be held by the Tea Folks that the coming catastrophe will be avoided. We needed the Tea Party a long time ago, but we're all FDR acolytes now.
With enermous downfalls can come new thinking, and a wise person can see that we need to re-instate the US Constitution. The problems we had way back then, save for the Civil War, were small in nature compared to what is coming.
The Tea Party may well be the alarm that is sounding off. Will enough people act in a sensible way?
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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Country: USA
| Posts: 1964 |
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 01/04/2011 : 9:00:18 PM
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Warmskin,
Who is a Politician? You seem to contradict yourself in one fashion. Anyone seeking either elected or appointed office is by definition, a politician. They come in all possible political stripes and viewpoints, from ultra-libertarian or extreme dictatorial statists.
The advice that Tea Party adherents should work their way up thru local and minor stAte offices is exactly on-target. But the implication is that you are calling for them to successfully BECOME the POLITICIANS you just disparqged.
This is not necessarily such a contradiction. What most conservatives and libertarians want is for most problems to be handled OUTSIDE GOVERNMENT, especially by competitive market systems.
The resulting Republicans are a merger, the most recent of 15 major reshufflings, like when the Populist Party meged with the Democrats, or some Dems joined with the Federalist fringe to form the Whigs. The winning policy options for the future sre to be determined by hundreds of local, state and federal primary contests, open to all citizerns who join the Party.
The same exact is true for Democratic Party to come. Look at the 2007-08 struggle between the Clinton and Obama forces.
Unfortunately, foreign policy, defense, and basic security is a field that cannot be handled by private means. Among other problems is the need to provide for whatever MIGHT be needed with up to 20 years of expensive development on systems that might, or might NOT be needed then. This is like projecting in very peaceful 1925 that we would not need anything particular in 1945, (by which time the real world was finishing World War II.)
Iraq is finished, and Afghanistan's quickest and cheapest long-range path is to WIN, sand not throw away what has been accomplished to protect the citizens. We can't ignore danger signals like Iran and Pakistani nukes, or the buildup of China's Navy. The British primarily protected America for a century just as we are primarily protecting Canada sincer WWII.
Please define "the catastrophe that is coming." Are you talking about the over-spending, most likely leading to bad inflation? The impending collapse of the over-spending states, like Ne3w York, California and Illinois, along with 100 or so cities, is likely to increase prssure for spending cuts. NOTE THAT THAT WOULD PROBABLY DRIVE MILLIONS OF MODERATE INTO REPUBLICAN RANKS for a decade or so, diluting ideology.
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Edited by - balataf on 01/04/2011 9:10:59 PM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 661 |
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Tea Party Ten Point Platform
