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SunTanMan
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 Posted - 10/22/2009 : 10:29:00 AM
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Hippy.com has an excellent article about the history of "hippies", which apparently have their roots to the 1800's in Germany.
Seems that nudism was a large part of this early German social movement that also included holistic healing, sun therapy, vegetarianism, exercise therapy and many other lifestyle issues that we associate with 60's hippy movement and to some degree to today's practice of social nudism.
The link to the article is :
http://www.hippy.com/php/article-243.html
If you have trouble with the link, just go to hippy.com and look for an article entitled "Hippy Roots". I believe it is in the article section or perhaps the archives.
Enjoy,
STM
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balataf
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Posted - 10/22/2009 : 8:32:31 PM
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I am very familiar with the history that DianH refers to, both in Europe, where the embracing of totalitarian methiods was the key to Communists splitting from the Social Democrats. Psychologically, that could be one reason that the Socialists sponsored nudism while the Communists were indifferent, (outside the Baltic area's culture of village saunas and Jewish Mikva baths.)
And while there was, in America, a thriving Socialist Party that elected thousands of local officials, its collapse came from normal social and economic forces. This included the fact that many Socialist enclaves were of a solidly ethnic nature, which was not sustainable in the land of the "melting pot." The great majority of Debs' old Socialists became New Deal Democrats by choice, as it was a more effective vehicle for both personal and group advancement.
If anyone wishes to debate this further, send me a "private message" and we do not need to involve the majority who probably do not care very much.
I WILL NOT RESPOND FURTHER HERE ON THIS SUBJECT.
Naken refers to a possible Constitutional right to be naked in the general public. This has no foundation, altho the right to be privately naked in groups is strongly affirmed in case law. There are several threads where this has been debated in the recent past. The prime barriers are not Federal, or even State, but local, and economic.
People have talked about assembling enuf nudists to take over a county or town. This is a nice dream, but the start-up cost is likely to be around ten billion US Dollars, with the need to find something to provide jobs, business and industry to continue to support the town.
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DianH
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Posted - 10/24/2009 : 11:06:42 PM
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There's already a town where it's legal to walk around nude: Brattleboro, Vermont.
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Warmskin
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Posted - 10/25/2009 : 02:59:23 AM
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In California, there are many 10s of thousands of acres where you can be nude, and that is one of the places I have spent nude more than any other. No organization needed. I enjoyed the California mountains in the nude since I was a boy. It was my free spirit and liberty which allowed me to do that.
"Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder."
George Washington
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naken
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Posted - 10/25/2009 : 08:19:03 AM
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In response to BALATAF forum member,i am always impressed with his understanding ,an view points,very well done keepup the good work Naken
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balataf
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Posted - 10/25/2009 : 1:04:45 PM
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Well, it is a long way from the occasionl person strolling around Brattleboro, (which I knew somewhat as a child,) and having nudists dominate in an ongoing, economically viable town. Also, the climate of Vermont is less than ideal for nudism for much of the year.
Naken, thanks for the endorsement! I try to keep things going and I love to give a different slant on ordinary or common ideas from my study and experiences.
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rss_ty
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Posted - 10/25/2009 : 1:17:41 PM
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DianH,
Nice to hear from someone with an iota of intelligence! Keep up the good work. Open minds begets open discussions; unfortunately, some are missing the boat.
You go girl!
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balataf
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Posted - 10/25/2009 : 5:58:41 PM
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rss_ty, I suggest that you research the many incorrect details in what DianH has posted. I stand by, and can support with SOLID facts, everything I've said. You might note that we agree on the basic factual outlines of events, but diverge on "how and why" some things happened. Again, I believe I can marshall a coherent cadre of information, which factor appears lacking in certain recent posts.
Please let me suggest that you might check out http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/politicometrics for a startling alternate view of the process of History.
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Warmskin
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Posted - 10/25/2009 : 8:12:17 PM
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One thing in this interesting discussion is freedom versus government compulsion. If I have freedom, I have the ability to be nude, if I don't offend others in doing so. If I do not have freedom, that our Constitution is supposed to back up, then my life is completely contingent on government whim.
I love to be able to chart my own life, without government saying that it knows best for me. It seems absurd that the folks in Washington D.C. know better about how I should run my life. They live 3000 miles away, and thus their ability to know me is severely unsubstantial and inadequate.
The American Constitution acknowledges us the right to contract with each other. In that sense, I can form partnership,or groups who can do anything that is not inherently harmful to others, or would take away from their enumerated rights.
Since I like to be nude, and this is completely an individual value on my part, I am empowered to find others who are like minded. I am not under government compulsion to do or be this way. I take the risks of failure or the profits of success. That is my choice.
Under the socialism of the Marxist old USSR, I have no rights to do this. Come to think of it, the Berlin Wall was not erected to keep western Europeans out of Eastern Europe. I wonder why. Further, eastern European frequently risked their lives to cross into western Europe. Liberty was their overriding impulse.
Actually I lived in a socialistic society in America. I gave according to my ability, and was provided according to my needs. The only  breakdown in the system was that some needed more for some reason, and received more. We all got free clothing, low cost food, free medical and dental, and more. We had equal bedding to sleep in, equal bathrooms, and equal things like movie theaters, gyms, and the like. Maybe some of you already know to what I refer --- yup, the military. Fooled some of you, huh?
There must be something wrong with a system wherein people risk death to get out of socialist nations. The Chinese did so, as they sneaked into Hong Kong to enjoy more freedom.
Perhaps government people simply don't know best about all the people in their nation. However, a nation that is free and has a Constitution that assures the innate rights of man, will then support the free activities of man, and among those the right to associate and to establish contracts to accomplish group goals, whatever they might be, and to acquire private property to effectuate a lifestyle.
When I was a boy, I had already, on my own, taken a liking to nudity. All I had to do, later on is find similarly minded people and use my inborn rights to establish a place where people could be nude. America is a wonderful nation, in that we, as a people, don't need to depend on which philosophy is out there. We can think, and then we have the freedom and know-how to act singularly. That is what made America the great nation it is.
"Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder."
George Washington
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balataf
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Posted - 10/26/2009 : 5:48:55 PM
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Well put, warmskin!
Even the gentleist socialism depends on coercing and compelling people to comply.
This is a restated problem of the ancient idea of the "Philosopher-King." If you understand exactly what the best course of action is, then you have little freedom to do anything else. But you also have the immense problem of how to get others to do it.
Looking at the evidence, it appears that the idea of Humans as causing global warming is stupid, pathetic and strange. (It was quite warmer in AD 1100-1300 than it is now. How is Human activity causing the CO2 icecps of Mars to melt?) But for those who do believe it, the unwillingmess of people like myself to support their error appears as an immediate threat when they see time "running out" irreversibly.
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Edited by - balataf on 10/26/2009 5:50:48 PM |
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Randall50
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Posted - 11/06/2009 : 7:43:57 PM
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Balataf: Your comments reveal a depth of knowledge uncommon to most forums I visit. I am very interested in why socialsts are unwilling to see their ways as coercive. Paradoxically, conservatives are seen as insensitive and intolerant, yet I see conservative ideas as liberating and respectful of the individual. Can you comment?
To gain confidence I always heard: "Imagine the person sitting in his underwear." Funny, I had nothing on at all.
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balataf
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Posted - 11/06/2009 : 9:03:50 PM
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Some people are always willing to use the power of government to make people do things. This usually appears on the extremes of the political or religious spectrum. These people are absolutely certain of the "rightness" of their cause, like the climate nuts I posted about earlier.
Communists, Fascists, Socialists and Welfare-Staters often cannot recognize a good motive for opposition, but rather decide you are corrupt or uncaring. You have seen an example of that psychology in this thread, earlier.
There is also the normal human tendency to want to control things around you. They get annoyed when they face opposition to their version of "the one reasonable path." You would dare fight against the TRUTH? This is why the hard liberal wing always views their opponents, as on the current health care monstrosity in Congress, as having "sold out" to corporate interests, when that is quite often not the real point at all.
European conservatives started with a core idea of defending royal and noble aristocratic privileges. That disappeared here with both the Revolution, and the Civil War. Meanwhile European conservatives, like Americans, wish to maintain (or "conserve") the traditional individual rights. Modern conservatism in Europe, since WW2 more closely resembles the British and American versions, with France lagging in that cultural development.
Please check out my Politicometrics, with the URL posted above. You can read anything, and I would easily allow you membership to post there. That goes for EVERYONE.
Of particular relevance to Randall50's question, see "chapter 15: Socialist Labor and the nature of Representation."
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Edited by - balataf on 11/06/2009 10:25:45 PM |
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balataf
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Posted - 01/07/2011 : 12:16:32 AM
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This entry is to bring this discussion up to current time because of some references in the thread "General Political Discourse."
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nudesunguy
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Posted - 01/12/2011 : 12:33:26 AM
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I think we lost DianH, perhaps he/she moved to North Korea?
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Warmskin
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Posted - 01/12/2011 : 01:51:20 AM
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In reading the amusing statements of the orignial poster, I still cannot think of one liberty-loving country where its citizens risk their life to break into a communist nation. (Maybe were too unenlightened to be good little obedient citizens of communist countries.) Something Dina did not cover, although one can understand why.
She did go into a lot of Christian bashing, in which she greatly distorted the organic teachings of Christ. One can guess from where these well-ingrained thought patterns from anyone who issues such statements came. Such hatred for early Christian teaching is a bit over the top, in my opinion. You know, the bit about praying for your enemies (how disgusting), loving your neighor as yourself (another outrageous proposition), or seeing hypocrisy in Christ's time (how awful to point out hypocrisy!). Maybe we need another mass purging of Christians. Paging Kaganovich of the old USSR. He was good at that. Okay, I was kidding in the last statement, but if one hates a religion that much, where does one draw the line in trying to rid the world of it? I read that sort of thing in her well-crafted statements, with their slightly hidden ideas.
I'm tolerant of other religions, and have met people in all major and minor religions in the world. I don't wish to harm them, but can one say with certainty that Dina's statements take on an opposite tack? I'll let others decide on that one.
Her statements did attempt to turn things upside down, with great exertion. The idea that the USSR, Cuba, North Korea, and mainland China are exemplary nations is a bit of a stretch.
Was her point to teach us something that is unworkable, or to argue for failure in government and civilization?
It's always amazing that people who love the dickens out of communism, live anywhere but in communist countries. I think that method of living one's life seems to be a bit hypocritical. Or, maybe it's that they want to convert Americans into communists, so we can have the splendid lifestyle of empty grocery store shelves.
One thing I can't remember if Dina liked our free speech in this country. Hmm, try that in communist countries. "Mr. Dictator, I disagree wth your policies." Say that in Dina's seeming favorite countries, and umm, you might end up in prison for a few decades, if not more, until your nation rises up and establishes a representative republic. Americans did that.
The obvious versus the false theories. I'll take the former, and leave the latter to the communist utopians.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
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