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DianH
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 Posted - 10/20/2009 : 01:51:19 AM
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Nudism was once practiced widely in Germany, promoted and partaken in by Marxists, until the Nazis came to power.
"...the [Marxist] urban-guerrilla group [Red Army Fraktion] attempted a course in desert warfare until their lack of military discipline and fondness for nude coed sunbathing got them kicked out." - http://www.slate.com/id/2224417/
"In the twentieth century, nudism grew quickly, reaching the level of a mass cultural phenonenon by the 1920s.... In Leipzig the major police crackdown on most nudist organizations occurred on September 6, 1933. ... the police dissolved and confiscated the means of most of Leipzig's nudist clubs... On September 8, the Adoa workers' bank was asked by police to freeze the accounts of eight free-time organizations, under suspicion of being Marxists, at least five of which were nudist groups...Key Nazi officials such as Frick and police agencies like the Gestapo were convinced that nudism was little more than an opportunity for Marxists to meet, and they repeatedly subjected nudists to background checks and investigations." - Ross, Chad. Naked Germany
Pics of a panorama of a Nude Beach in the former East Germany (Socialist Bloc):
Edited by - Admin to change title from "Did you know?"
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Warmskin
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Posted - 10/20/2009 : 03:08:22 AM
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Interesting stuff, but I probably didn't need marxism to want to be nude, nor would I want their philosophy of life, seeing how violent they were. Over 100 million killed. Ouch!!! 
Nudism would have flourished without them, but the Nazis sure did not do nudism any favors, either.
The pictures are kinda funny with the artificial nudists. Where did you get those photos? I didn't see them at the salon.com site. If I looked like them, it would be an improvement, though.
"Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder."
George Washington
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DianH
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Posted - 10/20/2009 : 05:22:33 AM
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The 100 million number is discredited. The authors of the book it originated it (The Black Book of Communism) even admit that the number is way off.
Besides, just because some committed crimes in the name of Marxism it doesn't make them Marxists.
You have Christian symbolism under your name. Do you approve of the countless murder carried out in the name of that religion?
Hell, capitalism has been responsible for many more than 100 million deaths. As Professor Chomsky has pointed out in response to "death count" claims: "...in India the democratic capitalist 'experiment' since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the 'colossal, wholly failed...experiment' of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since, in India alone. The 'criminal indictment' of the 'democratic capitalist experiment' becomes harsher still if we turn to its effects after the fall of Communism: millions of corpses in Russia, to take one case, as Russia followed the confident prescription of the World Bank that 'Countries that liberalise rapidly and extensively turn around more quickly [than those that do not],' returning to something like what it had been before World War I, a picture familiar throughout the 'third world.'... The indictment becomes far harsher if we consider these vast areas that remained under Western tutelage, yielding a truly 'colossal' record of skeletons and 'absolutely futile, pointless and inexplicable suffering' (Ryan). The indictment takes on further force when we add to the account the countries devastated by the direct assaults of Western power, and its clients, during the same years."
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NudeAl
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Posted - 10/20/2009 : 9:21:18 PM
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Thanks for posting Dian didn't know that. I knew the nazi's came down hard on them but didn't know about the marxist connection. History is my thing I would love to find a good difinitive book on the history of nudism.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep. -- Robert Frost
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Edited by - NudeAl on 10/20/2009 9:22:35 PM |
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Warmskin
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Posted - 10/20/2009 : 9:31:38 PM
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Show me where Jesus ever told his disciples to hate and kill people. His enemies sure loved to kill. Jesus taught his disciples to love their enemy and to pray for them.
I don't buy your "analysis" of the malevolent Communists. If you don't fit the Communist agenda you are fully expendable. Even your hero, Stalin, said that he had to "crack a few eggs" to make room for communism. I'm not so sure you can find one teaching of Jesus that would call for "cracking a few eggs." If you love Communism, as is obvious, I can't imagine where you have been hiding these past few decades. It's a great failure, and your propaganda and babbling notwithstanding, cannot be tucked away from public view.
10 of millions starved to death by Kaganovich in the Ukraine, and 10s of millions killed my Mao Tse-Tung's Marxists. Not a very humane bunch of people, and neither was their philosophy. You need to talk to the older Ukrainians about their Holocaust. They would highly resent your minimization of their suffering. There is no equivalent to these two genocides.
America is capitalist, and we are wealthy because of it. Only as Communist countries abandon Communism, do they fare better. China is importing quite a bit of it. It will be much wealthier as they abandon the sick imaginations of Karl Marx. America did not become a great nation by the government behaving like that of the <ahem> expired Soviet Union, Marxist nation that is was. Forced equality simply suppresses the human spirit. It has been tried and has failed magnificently.
Your statements do show rich imagination, but I'm afraid that the world and humanity is very different from what your statements show.
As for your concept that nudism owes its existence to Marxism-Communism is merely a good comedy.
"Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder."
George Washington
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balataf
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Posted - 10/20/2009 : 9:57:16 PM
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As I wrote in a post here several years ag, the Nudists were pretty much a subsidiary of the Social Democratic Party in Weimar Germany, thru Scaqndinavia, and around the Baltic. While there may have been connections elsewhere, this was the functioning center. One of the Great founders of Nudism in America, a lady who went by "Jan Gay," wrote up her experiences traveling in that region, which helped first spark the movement in America, Her main book was "On Going Naked," 1931.
There was no enforcement to this connection, but it is quite true, like the current American political alignment that Anti-Abortion and support for the Second Amendment have great overlap in their support bases. At this time, not just the Socialists, but other parties were running whole constellations of social organizations, such as shooting and marching clubs, kindergarten, gardening societies etc. The Zentrum (Catholic) Party, the Communists, and the Nazis tried to be "total organizations" that could cover every aspect of social life.
So I have read that in some areas there were nudist pre-schools run by the Social Democratic Party.
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Edited by - balataf on 10/20/2009 10:03:37 PM |
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sailawaybob
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Posted - 10/20/2009 : 10:24:04 PM
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is this a advertisment for a marxist/communist state in america by using a diorama of some nude figures, is this what you are promoting for a road to acceptance of nudism here. if so i would give up being a nudist in a heartbeat. but if this discussion isn't scary enough look at the direction our current leaders are taking us. being a christian and not a marxist all i can say is GOD help us save our republic.
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DianH
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Posted - 10/21/2009 : 6:11:28 PM
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"Show me where Jesus ever told his disciples to hate and kill people."
Ok.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. - Luke 19:27
Now you show me where Marx told workers to hate and kill people.
"Even your hero, Stalin, said that he had to 'crack a few eggs' to make room for communism."
I'm sorry, what are you talking about? Where have I mentioned Stalin?
"I'm not so sure you can find one teaching of Jesus that would call for 'cracking a few eggs.'"
I'm not so sure you've read the Bible. As Marx Twain said, the best cure for Christianity is reading it.
"If you love Communism, as is obvious, I can't imagine where you have been hiding these past few decades. It's a great failure, and your propaganda and babbling notwithstanding, cannot be tucked away from public view."
Meanwhile, capitalism improves daily... oh wait, we're currently in the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression.
"10 of millions starved to death by Kaganovich in the Ukraine"
Which has what to do with communism exactly?
Do you want to add up the number of deaths that have resulted from starvation under capitalism? 30,000 starve to death every day in capitalist countries.
"and 10s of millions killed my Mao Tse-Tung's Marxists."
Mao Zedong led a peasant revolution in a feudal country. As per Marx, communism can only result when the working class takes control of the means of production in countries with capitalist economies that have advanced as far as they can. See the difference?
"Not a very humane bunch of people, and neither was their philosophy. You need to talk to the older Ukrainians about their Holocaust. They would highly resent your minimization of their suffering. There is no equivalent to these two genocides."
I never minimized anyone's suffering. I said that (1) the 100 million deaths figure attributed to the "Socialist Bloc" has since been rejected by the people who came up with it; and, (2) the Socialist Bloc had nothing to do with Marx. If you're not going to be honest and have a principled discussion, I won't bother responding.
"America is capitalist, and we are wealthy because of it."
Actually, the United States (America is a continent, not a country) is wealthy because (1) it was founded on stolen land; (2) built up with the labor of slaves kidnapped from Africa and desperate immigrant labor; and, (3) the United States was the only major capitalist country not damaged by World War 2. The latter is what lead to it becoming the wealthiest country in the world. Before World War 2, the United States was not the strongest or richest country by any means. The destruction caused by the war allowed the United States to extend credits for the reconstruction of Europe (the Marshall Plan) and Japan. That's when / how it pulled ahead.
"Only as Communist countries abandon Communism, do they fare better."
Actually...
- In the USSR, there was no unemployment. Nine years after it crumbled, the unemployment rate in Russia was 50 percent. In the same period, real wages fell 80 percent. Life expectancy fell from 70 under the USSR to 67 today. That's the first time life expectancy has fallen in a major country in modern history.
- Under Mao, life expectancy in China doubled in a few years, going from a little over 30 in 1949 to more than 65 by 1975. In the same period, illiteracy dropped from 90 percent to 10 percent. Now, illiteracy, inequality and poverty are increasing.
- A majority of the population in East Germany thinks life was better "under communism." Source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122,00.html
- The best selling book in Germany is Marx's Das Kapital. Source: http://www.marxist.com/das-kapital-a-best-seller.htm
- In Hungary, a majority of the population thinks life was better "under communism." Source: http://www.politics.hu/20080521/poll-shows-majority-of-hungarians-feel-life-was-better-under-communism
- In Nepal, the Communist Party (Maoist) is supported by a majority of the people in the country and is on the cusp of seizing power.
- "Kanikosen — The Crab Cannery Ship," the 1929 Marxist novel by Takiji Kobayashi, is the best selling book in Japan. Source: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/japan/090223/land-rising-communism
- The Communist Party of Japan is the fasting growing party in Japan. Source: http://peoplesweeklyworldblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/japans-young-turn-to-communist-party.html
By the way, there's no such thing as a "Communist country." Communism, as per Marx, is a global society without states or borders. I've humored you here.
"It will be much wealthier as they abandon the sick imaginations of Karl Marx."
Please tell me (1) what you've read by Karl Marx; and (2) what about the economic system in China can be connected to communism as described by him?
"It has been tried and has failed magnificently."
Capitalism failed repeatedly before taking hold. It took hundreds of years for it to become dominant on a world scale. Social systems are not replaced overnight; but they are all eventually replaced by something better (feudalism replaced the slave state; capitalism replaced feudalism).
That said, communism has not really been attempted. The working class has only seized control of the means of production a few times (Paris 1871, St. Louis 1877, Russia 1917, Germany 1918, Hungary 1919, France 1968). In every instance they were drowned in blood soon after. Capitalism had not yet become historically outmoded. That has since changed.
"As for your concept that nudism owes its existence to Marxism-Communism is merely a good comedy."
Can you show me where I've said anything like that? Of course not, because I didn't. It's amazing that you'd be so blatantly dishonest in an arena like this where our words are recorded for all to see.
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DianH
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Posted - 10/21/2009 : 6:13:45 PM
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"As I wrote in a post here several years ag, the Nudists were pretty much a subsidiary of the Social Democratic Party in Weimar Germany, thru Scaqndinavia, and around the Baltic."
Yes, that is true. It seems many here aren't aware of it however. Due to the propaganda they've been exposed to their whole lives, they have no knowledge of the libertarian principles of Marx and actual working class organizations.
Hell, Frederich Engels, Marx's partner in crime as it were, lived in a menage with an Irish woman and her sister.
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DianH
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Posted - 10/21/2009 : 6:16:16 PM
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"is this a advertisment for a marxist/communist state"
(1) There is no such thing as a communist state (see above).
(2) Capitalism does a good enough job of "advertising" for communism on its own. See the cyclical crises it goes through every 10 years or so on a world scale and the mass poverty it inflicts upon a majority of the world's population so that a handful can live lives of luxury.
"in america by using a diorama of some nude figures, is this what you are promoting for a road to acceptance of nudism here."
Don't questions usually end with question marks?
"if so i would give up being a nudist in a heartbeat. but if this discussion isn't scary enough look at the direction our current leaders are taking us. being a christian and not a marxist all i can say is GOD help us save our republic."
'All I can say' is LOL!
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DianH
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Posted - 10/21/2009 : 6:21:31 PM
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We can quantify the deaths by "communism," but we will never know how many deaths have been the result of capitalism; of nothing more noble than a rich man wanting to be even richer, and sacrificing the health and lives of millions of workers to achieve this. Don't even try to count how many people capitalism has killed, because not only will you not know where to begin, but also it will never end.
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balataf
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Posted - 10/21/2009 : 7:32:28 PM
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Well, I do not advocate collectivism. If you were to go thru my total postings here, you would find strong evidence that I am a quite conservative Republican. Actually. I've spent many years as the Republican committeeman in my precinct.
But I am interested in history and have a focus on Germany. Note that this was not the totalitarian Communists, but rather the Social Democrats after the Communists had split off.
There is no political agenda in my history post above. While nudism had a political alignment in Europe, there was none to speak of here, outside of a few small isolated "colonies."
There is a thread going that gets revived every year or so about the political views of members here. Republican conservatives seem to dominate. I'll look for it now, again.
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Admin
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Posted - 10/22/2009 : 12:10:58 AM
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Since this is partly a political debate/discussion, it's a good time to remind any new people joining us to keep it civil, and factual.
Remember to provide quotes and supporting links where appropriate. Try to notice where you are using the words "you" or "your" in a derogatory manner, and rewrite that before posting it.
We may all learn something here if we're not careful.
Question: Was/is Marxism individualist or collectivist?
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naken
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Posted - 10/22/2009 : 12:27:34 AM
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Frankly ,i dont care,nor do i take the time to fill my brain with history ,that has no relative bearing on my current living free style.Adam an Eve as some believe were early naturist ,its not there fault if a few made it or opposed it as part of there political agenda.I believe the constitution protects our rights to be natural,an the day will come when the supreme court decides in our favor.No politics,no rightest or leftest,just naturist.Naken
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DianH
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Posted - 10/22/2009 : 01:06:06 AM
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It's true balataf. Most people involved in nudism and swinging (not the same thing of course) today are right libertarians a/k/a free marketeers. But that wasn't always the case.
You'll find that as concepts such as free love and the right to do what one pleases with their own body were removed from the liberating theories they were originally rooted in, they become dry shells of their former selves. Look at the prudish nudists who honestly try to convince themselves that there is nothing sexual about the naked human form and reject anything but the most acceptable sexual "norms."
It should also be noted that the politics in the United States are skewed far to the right. It is the only industrialized country without a party at least claiming to belong to the working class, and the "left" of the Democrats are miles to the right of the rightists in other countries. No voice opposing capitalism appears in any media, ever. That's a big part of the reason why rightist ideas flourish here. And since they do flourish, it's easy to understand why a majority of libertarians hold them.
I would argue that many have been taken in by the national myth of freedom. Instead of real, economic freedom, we're taught from an early age that freedom is a matter of being able to choose. But, we can only choose between options that have already been established. Going outside of those limits, e.g. making real choices, is forbidden. As George Carlin once put it, your "free choice" in this country is basically limited to which of the 32 flavors you'd like to buy from Baskin Robins.
There was a time when many workers in the United States wanted to seize control of the means of production and run society themselves. The Industrial Workers of the World once had the support of 300,000 workers (when the population was much lower than it is today), the Socialist and Communist parties has tens of thousands of members in years past, mayors of major cities belonged to the socialist party and Eugene Debs received 1 million votes when running for president on the socialist ticket from prison (where he was placed for opposing the entry of the US into World War I). But those organizations were all dismantled by force. Reds and suspected reds were forced out of unions and Hollywood. Leaders were arrested and assassinated. Offices were firebombed. Funds were seized. The ideas that millions of workers held weren't defeated by the "superiority" of capitalism, they were beat out of them.
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DianH
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Posted - 10/22/2009 : 01:11:08 AM
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"Note that this was not the totalitarian Communists, but rather the Social Democrats after the Communists had split off."
I'm not sure why you insist on referring to them as "totalitarian Communists." That kind of rhetoric doesn't do much in the way of getting to the bottom of things.
The Social Democrats believed themselves to be followers of Marx. After Marx died, the leadership of the party came to reject the need for revolution to change society and instead claimed that capitalism could evolve into communism. But it was only when the Social Democrats voted to support World War I, a war between capitalist states in which the working masses had no stake, that the communists departed their company.
They didn't leave because of any "totalitarian" need for control or anything like that. They left because they refused to lead workers to their deaths in order to build up the bank accounts of the rich even more.
It wasn't until much, much later that Stalin and Co., known by many actual communists as "the Gravediggers of the Revolution," began their reign in the USSR. Every single prominent communist that remained from the time of the split with the Social Democrats was then disappeared one way or another. In other words, they were done in by the "totalitarians" you claim they were.
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Did you know? History of Marxists, Nazis & nudism
