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catbird
Forum Member
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 Posted - 09/12/2008 : 5:19:34 PM
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I desire to sign the petition as of posting 09/12/2008 : 1:28:23 PM.
Naturally, Catbird
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Country: USA
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inudist
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/12/2008 : 5:40:03 PM
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JokerCPoC,
Here is a website of what seems to be a well organized group promoting nudism in the Seattle area. I stumbled across this a while ago. It has several projects that promote nudism in a positive light. I do like the approach they use although I am not involved with this organization. Maybe you could get some ideas here.
http://www.bodyfreedom.org/
I do agree with balataf that it starts local.
inudist
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Edited by - inudist on 09/12/2008 5:50:22 PM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 28 |
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JokerCPoC
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/12/2008 : 5:52:48 PM
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Here It is, See the link in My sig. 
It's not that I don't like the idea of from the ground up, As getting people to accept Nudity is one thing, But getting protection from those that are ignorant or just dead set against Nudity can't be done from the ground up as only a legislature or the courts can do anything like that, Unless like in California one has a ballot measure(an Initiative process) that can be put up for a vote after getting peoples handwritten signatures down on paper and submitting those signatures to the state of California for processing. 
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Edited by - JokerCPoC on 09/14/2008 1:03:55 PM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 56 |
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JokerCPoC
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/12/2008 : 6:03:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by inudist
JokerCPoC,
Here is a website of what seems to be a well organized group promoting nudism in the Seattle area. I stumbled across this a while ago. It has several projects that promote nudism in a positive light. I do like the approach they use although I am not involved with this organization. Maybe you could get some ideas here.
http://www.bodyfreedom.org/
I do agree with balataf that it starts local.
inudist
It's a nice site, I bookmarked It, thanks, Although I don't live anywhere near Seattle Washington, Still It's a nice thought and thanks. In any case people that are against nudism try and get laws passed, So why don't We have the protection We deserve? I mean It isn't going to come about all on It's own and If they think there is no support nothing will change as I've read.
I've got top fix the link, As It's 404 now. Drat.
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Edited by - JokerCPoC on 09/14/2008 1:04:22 PM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 56 |
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JokerCPoC
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/12/2008 : 6:06:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by catbird
I desire to sign the petition as of posting 09/12/2008 : 1:28:23 PM.
Naturally, Catbird
Sorry Catbird and all, The link is fixed now and tested. 
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Edited by - JokerCPoC on 09/14/2008 1:04:45 PM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 56 |
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JokerCPoC
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/12/2008 : 6:10:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by acoustixman
Signed and commented in agreement with you gents, although perhaps less succinctly on my part. (#59)
With enough of us joining in and helping clarify that we are not promoting public lewdness, maybe this will eventually see the light of day in congress. I'm just always skeptical of these things. Maybe local petitions to individual congress personnel would be good too?
edit: I was just looking at the list a little more, and I noticed some pretty toxic replies! Hopefully these are either diluted or eliminated...
-JW
Seeking my role in opening the eyes of the world to the simple harmless pleasure of being naked in our great outdoors.
That's why I built My own petition, among other reasons. 
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Edited by - JokerCPoC on 09/14/2008 1:05:09 PM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 56 |
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/13/2008 : 06:37:43 AM
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The idea has been floated quite a few times. both in Naturist Resorts and elsewhere, that Nudists should organizxe to for many of us to move into one particular county, so as to take it over politically and socially. Many other fields of enthusiasm have projected the same idea, particularly the Libertarians, whose program is quite compatible with Nudism.
This idea has nearly always fallen flat, if only because it does not provide an economic base for this proposed community to make its living. Obviously, a warm climate and tourism would have to be part of the answer. while somehow. (How?) discouraging gawkers and thrill-seekers. The nearest model I can see is the French Cap D'Adge community. We are talking a gigantic expense in the tens of billions of dollars just for land. If such funds were raised and funneled thru some "Nudist Corporation" to make land purchases etc., it is barely possible. (No pun intended, but cute.)
American history shows about 20 group examples of single-minded settlers who established stable communities, of which, the most successful by far, was the Mormon trek to Utah, centered in Salt Lake City. These were all religious and mostly small farmers. I doubt that there could be such cohesion for a mass of otherwise quite diverse Nudists. Even getting dominance in any one suburban "gated" subdivision isn't easy.
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Country: USA
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JokerCPoC
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/13/2008 : 11:54:27 AM
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Yeah, Land, There's a 546 acre parcel(approximate size) out here nearby thats zoned residential and yep one can even keep horses on It, The owner wanted about $1,000,000.00 for It(It's relatively near a freeway, But not next to one and relatively flat), Of course It's in the Desert nearby and in summer It can be over 100F for about 110 days a year and sometimes Snow is a possibility and that happens maybe once every 10 years or so. I found It on realtor.com using the 92398 zip code. So land is not cheap, Most plots are smaller, Like under 40 acres.
Silver Valley Sun Club is out here and no I'm not a member, yet($308 a year with AANR membership). As I have a few things I need to do to My house before I can free up the spending money as I'm slowly upgrading the house here and I'm only a 1/4 of the way done, That and I have a large Aquarium to finish up(105 gallons).
The Petition is up to 5 now.
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Edited by - JokerCPoC on 09/14/2008 1:05:35 PM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 56 |
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VLM34
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/14/2008 : 12:42:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by balataf
Unfortunately, a solid dose of reality is needed for this fantasy movement. American government is based on a FEDERAL system, with power over different areas assigned to local, state and national levels. This is a local function, subject to review by whichever state the community is in.
As a practical matter, if it were somehow taken to the national government, then what areas of nude freedom now exist would be wiped out. Better to win in some communities rather than lose it all completely. Think about it!
Balataf is right on.
There’s no federal law against nudity now, and we don’t want one. It would take a constitutional amendment or a SCOTUS decision to override state authority as regards nudity. Such preemption is highly unlikely. Let’s not stir the federal legislative pot.
On some topics, including nudity, some states allow political subdivisions (counties, cities) to pass ordinances more restrictive than state law. This results in a patchwork of radically different laws within a state. Other states (e.g., Oregon) reserve such topics to the state legislature.
Some state statutes are ridiculously prudish and punitive. Others (e.g., Oregon’s) are eminently reasonable.
There’s been a very successful effort over the last 50 years by groups of lawyers to propose “model” state statutes, and then get state legislatures to pass them. One example is the Uniform Gifts to Minors Act. Another is the move towards (more-or-less) uniform traffic laws.
If petition authors want to do something useful, I’d suggest two practical actions:
1. Forget about petitions and instead propose a “Uniform Public Indecency Statute” which would a) reserve laws on that topic to the state legislature, and b) copy Oregon’s Public Indecency statute. Then, working with existing lawyer and legislative groups, get one state after another to adopt the uniform statute. That approach has the potential to actually do some good, with little if any potential to make matters worse for naturists.
2. Figure out which candidates for local, state, and national office are most likely to oppose a Public Indecency statute like Oregon’s. Then, vote against them. Those candidates are quite easy to identify. You don’t need to ask them about nudity. Anyone who wants to impose a single point of view or a single standard of conduct on everyone, by law, is someone to vote against. I could list maybe a couple dozen easy ways to identify those to vote against, ways that are doubly easy in an election year, but I’ll leave that as an exercise for the reader. By voting against such people now and in the future, you make passage in your state of a future Uniform Public Indecency statute much more likely.
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Country: France
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JokerCPoC
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/14/2008 : 1:02:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by VLM34
quote:
Originally posted by balataf
Unfortunately, a solid dose of reality is needed for this fantasy movement. American government is based on a FEDERAL system, with power over different areas assigned to local, state and national levels. This is a local function, subject to review by whichever state the community is in.
As a practical matter, if it were somehow taken to the national government, then what areas of nude freedom now exist would be wiped out. Better to win in some communities rather than lose it all completely. Think about it!
Balataf is right on.
There’s no federal law against nudity now, and we don’t want one. It would take a constitutional amendment or a SCOTUS decision to override state authority as regards nudity. Such preemption is highly unlikely. Let’s not stir the federal legislative pot.
On some topics, including nudity, some states allow political subdivisions (counties, cities) to pass ordinances more restrictive than state law. This results in a patchwork of radically different laws within a state. Other states (e.g., Oregon) reserve such topics to the state legislature.
Some state statutes are ridiculously prudish and punitive. Others (e.g., Oregon’s) are eminently reasonable.
There’s been a very successful effort over the last 50 years by groups of lawyers to propose “model” state statutes, and then get state legislatures to pass them. One example is the Uniform Gifts to Minors Act. Another is the move towards (more-or-less) uniform traffic laws.
If petition authors want to do something useful, I’d suggest two practical actions:
1. Forget about petitions and instead propose a “Uniform Public Indecency Statute” which would a) reserve laws on that topic to the state legislature, and b) copy Oregon’s Public Indecency statute. Then, working with existing lawyer and legislative groups, get one state after another to adopt the uniform statute. That approach has the potential to actually do some good, with little if any potential to make matters worse for naturists.
2. Figure out which candidates for local, state, and national office are most likely to oppose a Public Indecency statute like Oregon’s. Then, vote against them. Those candidates are quite easy to identify. You don’t need to ask them about nudity. Anyone who wants to impose a single point of view or a single standard of conduct on everyone, by law, is someone to vote against. I could list maybe a couple dozen easy ways to identify those to vote against, ways that are doubly easy in an election year, but I’ll leave that as an exercise for the reader. By voting against such people now and in the future, you make passage in your state of a future Uniform Public Indecency statute much more likely.
Would that be this?
As this sounds like reform, maybe, It does sound good. Although I do have some problems with 1(c). As in could an Officer interpret this to mean just plain exposure? And try and get a confession out of a suspect to prove intent?
quote:
NAC
http://www.nac.oshkosh.net/StatesFrames/State_Laws_Frames/Oregon_Laws/body_oregon_laws.html
163.465 Public indecency.
(1) A person commits the crime of public indecency if while in, or in view of, a public place the person performs:
(a) An act of sexual intercourse; or
(b) An act of deviate sexual intercourse; or
(c) An act of exposing the genitals of the person with the intent of arousing the sexual desire of the person or another person.
(2)
(a) Public indecency is a Class A misdemeanor.
(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this subsection, public indecency is a Class C felony if the person has a prior conviction for public indecency or a crime described in ORS 163.355 to 163.445. [1971 c.743 s.120; 1999 c.962 s.1]
Note: Section 3, chapter 962, Oregon Laws 1999, provides:
Sec. 3. The Oregon Criminal Justice Commission shall classify felony public indecency as a person felony and crime category 6 of the sentencing guidelines grid of the commission. [1999 c.962 s.3]
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Edited by - JokerCPoC on 09/14/2008 1:19:01 PM |
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Country: USA
| Posts: 56 |
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JokerCPoC
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/14/2008 : 1:12:15 PM
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Ok I've withdrawn any support for the idea in favor of a Uniform Indecency Statue instead, As It may be better, But how to get It made into a bill is another question.
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Country: USA
| Posts: 56 |
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VLM34
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/14/2008 : 2:05:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JokerCPoC
quote:
Originally posted by VLM34
quote:
Originally posted by balataf
Unfortunately, a solid dose of reality is needed for this fantasy movement. American government is based on a FEDERAL system, with power over different areas assigned to local, state and national levels. This is a local function, subject to review by whichever state the community is in.
As a practical matter, if it were somehow taken to the national government, then what areas of nude freedom now exist would be wiped out. Better to win in some communities rather than lose it all completely. Think about it!
Balataf is right on.
There’s no federal law against nudity now, and we don’t want one. It would take a constitutional amendment or a SCOTUS decision to override state authority as regards nudity. Such preemption is highly unlikely. Let’s not stir the federal legislative pot.
On some topics, including nudity, some states allow political subdivisions (counties, cities) to pass ordinances more restrictive than state law. This results in a patchwork of radically different laws within a state. Other states (e.g., Oregon) reserve such topics to the state legislature.
Some state statutes are ridiculously prudish and punitive. Others (e.g., Oregon’s) are eminently reasonable.
There’s been a very successful effort over the last 50 years by groups of lawyers to propose “model” state statutes, and then get state legislatures to pass them. One example is the Uniform Gifts to Minors Act. Another is the move towards (more-or-less) uniform traffic laws.
If petition authors want to do something useful, I’d suggest two practical actions:
1. Forget about petitions and instead propose a “Uniform Public Indecency Statute” which would a) reserve laws on that topic to the state legislature, and b) copy Oregon’s Public Indecency statute. Then, working with existing lawyer and legislative groups, get one state after another to adopt the uniform statute. That approach has the potential to actually do some good, with little if any potential to make matters worse for naturists.
2. Figure out which candidates for local, state, and national office are most likely to oppose a Public Indecency statute like Oregon’s. Then, vote against them. Those candidates are quite easy to identify. You don’t need to ask them about nudity. Anyone who wants to impose a single point of view or a single standard of conduct on everyone, by law, is someone to vote against. I could list maybe a couple dozen easy ways to identify those to vote against, ways that are doubly easy in an election year, but I’ll leave that as an exercise for the reader. By voting against such people now and in the future, you make passage in your state of a future Uniform Public Indecency statute much more likely.
Would that be this?
Yes.
quote:
As this sounds like reform, maybe, It does sound good. Although I do have some problems with 1(c). As in could an Officer interpret this to mean just plain exposure? And try and get a confession out of a suspect to prove intent?
You may, perhaps, misunderstand the American legal sytem. Anyone can be arrested for anything. No evidence or other reason is necessary. If you resist, you've broken the law and will be convicted and sentenced - no matter what happens to the other charge.
Unjustified arrests are common as punishment for doing whatever an officer (or his superiors) doesn't like. Sometimes charges are dropped a few days later, sometimes not. If they're not dropped and you plead guilty so you can go home, you're guilty. If you have the guts and the money to fight the charge, and if the charge has to do with nudity, you'll still be found guilty at trial, but you'll win in the first or second appeal court - if you have the guts and the money to keep fighting. When that happens, the officer, the prosecutor, and the judge that found you guilty pay no penalty. You're cleared, but you're out the time, the money, and the adverse publicity. They won, you lost. That's the way it is. Accept it.
To answer your question, of course that can happen. However, if you hang in there, the prosecution has to prove intent in court and that proof has to withstand scrutiny on appeal. That's a bit difficult when you were swimming, sunning, playing volleyball, or just walking along.
quote:
NAC
http://www.nac.oshkosh.net/StatesFrames/State_Laws_Frames/Oregon_Laws/body_oregon_laws.html
163.465 Public indecency.
(1) A person commits the crime of public indecency if while in, or in view of, a public place the person performs:
(a) An act of sexual intercourse; or
(b) An act of deviate sexual intercourse; or
(c) An act of exposing the genitals of the person with the intent of arousing the sexual desire of the person or another person.
(2)
(a) Public indecency is a Class A misdemeanor.
(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this subsection, public indecency is a Class C felony if the person has a prior conviction for public indecency or a crime described in ORS 163.355 to 163.445. [1971 c.743 s.120; 1999 c.962 s.1]
Note: Section 3, chapter 962, Oregon Laws 1999, provides:
Sec. 3. The Oregon Criminal Justice Commission shall classify felony public indecency as a person felony and crime category 6 of the sentencing guidelines grid of the commission. [1999 c.962 s.3]
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Country: France
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Cheri
Forum Member
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VLM34
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/14/2008 : 4:14:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheri
VLM, You might enjoy reading this thread: http://www.nudist-resorts.org/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28
Not enjoyable at all. As far as I could tell in one pass through, every post misinforms. Even the attorney guy got some things wrong. There's no way I'd try to straighten out that mess. I just hope that no one depends on anything that was said.
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Country: France
| Posts: 154 |
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JokerCPoC
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/14/2008 : 4:26:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by VLM34
quote:
Originally posted by JokerCPoC
quote:
Originally posted by VLM34
quote:
Originally posted by balataf
Unfortunately, a solid dose of reality is needed for this fantasy movement. American government is based on a FEDERAL system, with power over different areas assigned to local, state and national levels. This is a local function, subject to review by whichever state the community is in.
As a practical matter, if it were somehow taken to the national government, then what areas of nude freedom now exist would be wiped out. Better to win in some communities rather than lose it all completely. Think about it!
Balataf is right on.
There’s no federal law against nudity now, and we don’t want one. It would take a constitutional amendment or a SCOTUS decision to override state authority as regards nudity. Such preemption is highly unlikely. Let’s not stir the federal legislative pot.
On some topics, including nudity, some states allow political subdivisions (counties, cities) to pass ordinances more restrictive than state law. This results in a patchwork of radically different laws within a state. Other states (e.g., Oregon) reserve such topics to the state legislature.
Some state statutes are ridiculously prudish and punitive. Others (e.g., Oregon’s) are eminently reasonable.
There’s been a very successful effort over the last 50 years by groups of lawyers to propose “model” state statutes, and then get state legislatures to pass them. One example is the Uniform Gifts to Minors Act. Another is the move towards (more-or-less) uniform traffic laws.
If petition authors want to do something useful, I’d suggest two practical actions:
1. Forget about petitions and instead propose a “Uniform Public Indecency Statute” which would a) reserve laws on that topic to the state legislature, and b) copy Oregon’s Public Indecency statute. Then, working with existing lawyer and legislative groups, get one state after another to adopt the uniform statute. That approach has the potential to actually do some good, with little if any potential to make matters worse for naturists.
2. Figure out which candidates for local, state, and national office are most likely to oppose a Public Indecency statute like Oregon’s. Then, vote against them. Those candidates are quite easy to identify. You don’t need to ask them about nudity. Anyone who wants to impose a single point of view or a single standard of conduct on everyone, by law, is someone to vote against. I could list maybe a couple dozen easy ways to identify those to vote against, ways that are doubly easy in an election year, but I’ll leave that as an exercise for the reader. By voting against such people now and in the future, you make passage in your state of a future Uniform Public Indecency statute much more likely.
Would that be this?
Yes.
quote:
As this sounds like reform, maybe, It does sound good. Although I do have some problems with 1(c). As in could an Officer interpret this to mean just plain exposure? And try and get a confession out of a suspect to prove intent?
You may, perhaps, misunderstand the American legal sytem. Anyone can be arrested for anything. No evidence or other reason is necessary. If you resist, you've broken the law and will be convicted and sentenced - no matter what happens to the other charge.
Unjustified arrests are common as punishment for doing whatever an officer (or his superiors) doesn't like. Sometimes charges are dropped a few days later, sometimes not. If they're not dropped and you plead guilty so you can go home, you're guilty. If you have the guts and the money to fight the charge, and if the charge has to do with nudity, you'll still be found guilty at trial, but you'll win in the first or second appeal court - if you have the guts and the money to keep fighting. When that happens, the officer, the prosecutor, and the judge that found you guilty pay no penalty. You're cleared, but you're out the time, the money, and the adverse publicity. They won, you lost. That's the way it is. Accept it.
To answer your question, of course that can happen. However, if you hang in there, the prosecution has to prove intent in court and that proof has to withstand scrutiny on appeal. That's a bit difficult when you were swimming, sunning, playing volleyball, or just walking along.
quote:
NAC
http://www.nac.oshkosh.net/StatesFrames/State_Laws_Frames/Oregon_Laws/body_oregon_laws.html
163.465 Public indecency.
(1) A person commits the crime of public indecency if while in, or in view of, a public place the person performs:
(a) An act of sexual intercourse; or
(b) An act of deviate sexual intercourse; or
(c) An act of exposing the genitals of the person with the intent of arousing the sexual desire of the person or another person.
(2)
(a) Public indecency is a Class A misdemeanor.
(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this subsection, public indecency is a Class C felony if the person has a prior conviction for public indecency or a crime described in ORS 163.355 to 163.445. [1971 c.743 s.120; 1999 c.962 s.1]
Note: Section 3, chapter 962, Oregon Laws 1999, provides:
Sec. 3. The Oregon Criminal Justice Commission shall classify felony public indecency as a person felony and crime category 6 of the sentencing guidelines grid of the commission. [1999 c.962 s.3]
I thought that in this country, One was innocent until proven guilty, Not Guilty until proven Innocent as that's not right. That's legalized government harassment to Me, Just what We need Police and Prosecutors as Bullys, Which means We are being Discriminated against for more than just the wrong reasons, But possibly religious, My sister-in-law who's a Nurse doesn't like Nudity and I quote Her here "I see nudity everyday and I don't want to see anymore of It", To Her son My nephew I'm indecent when not dressed and that's hurtful, Thankfully when I announced I'd eventually be joining a Nudist resort nearby and doing It outside, She didn't disown Me. We do need the protection of the law from the law in My mind, Some want to do nothing but rely on No federal laws against nudity which almost says paint a sign on My back saying please Kick Me, Hard!! And others well I don't know.
What's next? A Kangaroo court?
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Edited by - JokerCPoC on 09/14/2008 4:51:39 PM |
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Country: USA
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Reform of the Indecency Statutes is needed
