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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| enrique620 |
Posted - 10/28/2008 : 4:51:16 PM
Greetings, everyone.
My name is Eric and I am a student at the School of Visual Arts in NYC, getting my masters in Video Art. I am currently in pre-production on an experimental documentary concerned with the topic of utopianism and am looking for contributors to this project.
I should say, straight up, that I personally do not choose a clothing-optional lifestyle. Also, due to this, I am not quite up to par with the protocols of interviewing candidates immersed in this ideology. I am simply drawn to the fundamentals of this philosophy as a social evolution of sorts. I am most interested in knowing if individual nudists believe in utopianism or relate this movement to a sort of Utopia?
Do you think that patrons (or any one in the management) would be amenable to interviews? I would also be happy to do email interviews, if anyone would prefer that route. If not, could you refer me to someone who might? I would appreciate any information that you could give me.
Thanks in advance for your time. Hope that this is ok to do :)
Respectfully,
Eric
PS, though I am happy to wax poetic over this topic via email, on-camera interviews are only possible for me in and around the NY area. Thanks. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| pilot |
Posted - 12/02/2008 : 04:22:29 AM
Perhaps a different way to approach the question is to ask precisely what purposes are served by clothes.
Worn for protection or warmth, clothes are a practical response to environmental stresses or threats. Even devoted nudists know that clothes are necessary sometimes ("We're nudists, not idiots.").
Worn by convention or to signify a role, clothes are also a practical response to various social needs. Even in a perfect society, we expect to identify some roles by appearance.
Beyond that, there are personal issues of adornment and concealment. The two can be hard to separate. And those decisions strike me as matters of personal preference.
My sense is that those who prefer to be nude prefer to do so in the context where clothes make little if any sense. At home. Outdoors on warm/hot days. When bathing/swimming/sunning. When sleeping.
All of this strikes me as more pragmatic than idealistic.
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| n/a |
Posted - 12/02/2008 : 02:06:32 AM
Interesting ideas from everyone :)
The "philosophy" behind my vision of utopia is simple ... it's just the Golden Rule. I sometimes wistfully remark that I could have been happy living in a tribal unit during the Stone Age. Perhaps that would have only lasted until the first time I broke my leg, but I do believe that most of the social problems in modern societies are consequences of the loss of the social cohesiveness that is found in tribes and clans. In that sense, urbanization did not represent an advance for human society, it represented a step backward, despite the economic advantages that may have been gained.
I have studied anthropology, and I well realize that Stone Age peoples' lives were not necessarily happy, carefree frolics in the sunshine. Some of them were "nasty, brutish, and short", as the saying goes. Nonetheless, they were not obliged to devote a significant portion of their energy dealing with crime, delinquency, drug addiction, mental illness, or divorce.
Generally speaking, Stone Age people were well-fed and had more leisure time than we do today. They knew who they were and what their place was in the world. They did not have to concern themselves with drive-by shootings, children going to bed hungry (unless everyone went to bed hungry), domestic abuse, undrinkable water, unbreathable air, suicide bombings, or the spectre of nuclear annihilation. One person's problems were everyone's problems, and you took care of your own. If you didn't, you didn't last long in your tribe. Or your tribe itself didn't last long.
Which gets us back to the Golden Rule as the only "law" that should be required or desired.
What does this have to do with nudism? I remarked in an earlier post that I dream of living without the need for imposed restraints, including the requirement that I cover my nakedness. But that would only work in a society of responsible adults who do not selfishly impose on the rights and needs of others.
I don't think nudism itself "leads" to utopia, nor is it the other way around. I do think that the utopia of which I dream would have no need of clothing as status indicators or as moral keepers. Clothing would be for decoration or environmental protection. Either way, clothing would be your choice, including the choice of no clothing at all.
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| aaardvark |
Posted - 12/01/2008 : 2:27:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by old hippie
Actually, I think Doc and Honeysuckle may be looking at the connection in reverse: it might not be that naturism leads to Utopia, but that a utopian society would endorse naturism. This seems to me a completely consistent view. As Honeysuckle indicated, any Utopia worth the title would include a full tolerance of any practice that is harmless to others ("live freely and happily with a group of like-minded adults, who are grownup enough and responsible enough that there is no need for imposed restraints, whether external or internal").
So, if the direction of correlation is inverted, we might find a good correspondence of utopianism to naturism. Have you considered that, Eric?
Dum vivimus, vivamus!
Excellent points Old Hippie good sir!
Maybe then this can be taken further. If utopia is a place where naturism is endorsed as just another optional mode of living that co-exists among other modes of living then maybe naturism ceases to exist. The way I see it, I call myself a "nudist" or a "naturist" because I am part of a minority group and the society I live in effectively forces me to justify my way of life by underpinning it with a philosophy of some sort, labelled "Nudism" or "Naturism". This label is as much other-imposed as self-claimed and I'm in a continual fight to try and get their idea of what naturism is to align with mine. In a utopian society, there would be no need for Honeysuckle, Naturistdoc, me, you or anyone else here to justify ourselves. We would simply go about our totally unclothed business as and when we saw fit (and clothe ourselves when we choose to).
When I was in Munich, I sunbathed nude among others in the Englischergarten. There were other people around me who had come from offices and were in various states of (un)dress. Some people stripped off to get some rays while having their lunch then put their business clothes back on to return to the office. I doubt if any of them would have been considered nudists or naturists because they simply blended into the landscape where something like this was seen as normal.
This is a great topic - thanks to all who have contributed. |
| old hippie |
Posted - 12/01/2008 : 01:18:36 AM
Actually, I think Doc and Honeysuckle may be looking at the connection in reverse: it might not be that naturism leads to Utopia, but that a utopian society would endorse naturism. This seems to me a completely consistent view. As Honeysuckle indicated, any Utopia worth the title would include a full tolerance of any practice that is harmless to others ("live freely and happily with a group of like-minded adults, who are grownup enough and responsible enough that there is no need for imposed restraints, whether external or internal").
So, if the direction of correlation is inverted, we might find a good correspondence of utopianism to naturism. Have you considered that, Eric?
Dum vivimus, vivamus! |
| aaardvark |
Posted - 11/23/2008 : 9:47:04 PM
This is a very interesting thread. Eric: Is this project simply a visual arts project or is there some notion of philosophy or social research attached to it? Do you have to come up with some definition of "Utopia" and then see how your 'participants' understand "Utopia"?
I've had to have a bit of a think about this myself. I've been to Cape D'Agde and while it was nice, I didn't necessarily think it was utopia. I saw the same problems of littering and inconsiderate behaviour that I have seen in clothed cities so I came to the conclusion that they were really just clothed people without clothes. Then I thought "maybe if they were all like me with the same worldview, that would be utopia" well no, actually it would be butt-clenchingly boring. Maybe utopia is an unreachable state?
I think NaturistDoc has really hit it on the head for me. Because nudists are on the back wall so much, any chance to get naked is 'utopian' in comparison to the way mainstream society runs. As NaturistDoc says "Most nudists don't really want to change the world; we just want to lounge around with our kit off without getting arrested." That is how I see myself. Utopianism for me would be to be able to go to any beach including our local ones and get naked any time without fear of arrest. While Cape D'Agde might be the closest to utopia that I can get, it is still over 30 hours flying time and several thousand dollars away, a cost I can't particularly afford. |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/17/2008 : 12:55:56 PM
Thank you, Rodders. I don't know about the world ... but a little corner of it would be nice :) |
| Rodders |
Posted - 11/17/2008 : 05:49:00 AM
Dream on Honeysuckle. People like you make the world a better place.
Rod |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/16/2008 : 3:57:11 PM
"I doubt that they make up even one percent of the total"
I guess I'm part of that one percent. I dream of such a situation. I'm not totally foolish, however ... I fully realize that so-called Utopian societies always seem to fail. But in the back of my mind I suspect that's because they simply try to impose a variation of the socio-political system they came from. My dream is somewhat less grand ... I simply want to live freely and happily with a group of like-minded adults, who are grownup enough and responsible enough that there is no need for imposed restraints, whether external or internal. I see no inherent reason why such a thing could not be.
I can hear you all snickering now. And perhaps you're right. Perhaps I'm simply a wild-eyed dreamer with her head in the clouds. I don't know. But I would like, someday, to try it.
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| NaturistDoc |
Posted - 11/16/2008 : 2:18:01 PM
While I suppose there are some zealots among the millions of American nudists/naturists who believe that social nudity represents the path to True Happiness and Global Harmony and World Peace, I doubt that they make up even one percent of the total.
Nudists, like any other brutally repressed minority  , tend necessarily to be rather practical sorts. As such, they are generally not good candidates for idealism or Utopianism, although there will always be a few evangelical nudists around to fight the Good Fight ... and vaguely embarrass the rest of us. The only truly Utopian aspect of nudist culture is the desire simply to be left alone to do what we do. But even a cursory tour through this website will reveal very deep differences of opinion - hardly a strong foundation for Utopia.
Practical people know better than to long for a Utopia - which after all literally means "no such place", (The word stands in contradistinction to its homophones "Eutopia" ("good place") or "EEWW-topia" ("swinger resort").) Most nudists don't really want to change the world; we just want to lounge around with our kit off without getting arrested.
Doc
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| Rodders |
Posted - 11/16/2008 : 12:37:10 PM
Utopia is a term invented by Thomas More, England's Lord Chancellor in the 1500s and he ended up having his head chopped off. Nudism is what you make it. To many, me included, it is sensual, comfortable, sensible and, on a social level, very rewarding. I think Utopia if it existed would be perfect. Don't think that place exists yet. I often think it does exist for a couple of weeks whilst on vacation.
Rod |
| Warmskin |
Posted - 11/15/2008 : 11:51:03 AM
Ultimately, utopia is an inner state of being. To achieve it, you have find it within you. Certain surroundings can surely induce that in you, if you let it.
That government governs best, which governs least - Thomas Jefferson |
| old hippie |
Posted - 11/15/2008 : 03:02:38 AM
Just now I can't offer the reference, but I have read among some of the historical essays on the spread of naturism from Europe to North America some indications that several of the early proponents were interested in establishing a sort of utopian enclave. In the aspect of searching for an idealised mode of living, perhaps modeled loosely on the Utopia of Aquinas, these pioneers tried to set up communities in harmony with nature, including the freedom from clothes.
From www.orbtoronto.com :
"Organized naturism was called Freikörperkultur (Free body culture) in Germany, the country of its origin. It first came onto the scene at the beginning of the present century.
It was a time of awakening, of shedding stiff Victorian collars and the accompanying values; there came a need for lightness, air, a more natural style of living, as well as less restrictive clothing. Neinrich Pudor's book The Cult of the Nude appeared as a timely beacon. By 1903, Freilichtpark (Free-Light Park), the first known nudist club, was opened near Hamburg. Shortly after that, Heinrich Ungewitter published Die Nacktheit (Nakedness), a utopia of nude living. It went through several reprints."
and
From the website www.internationalnudist.com:
"
February 27, 2008
A Nudist Utopia: Is it possible?
Is a nudist / naturist utopia possible? It depends on your definition of utopia. A utopia, as defined by many, is a place where there is some ideal environment and people and where people behave in some ideal way (i.e. there are never any behavioral problems or violations of the rules). The problem is that, when you’re dealing with humans, you’re dealing with human nature and issues do arise in reality. However, human behavior can be improved with rules or laws that have consequences upon violation. In this more realistic approximation of a utopia, nudist utopias already exist, in the form of nudist resorts. Modern nudist resorts work because there is a basic code of conduct that must be followed. Nudist places where you have no rules are also where you can have more behavior problems, such as public nude beaches.
So if nudist resorts are our real-world nudist utopias, why do some nudists yearn for more? I think for many, it’s because they want a more complete society. While a nudist resort might be a nice little utopia, members may never be able to shop, bank, work or do other everyday, “civilized” activities nude. To live a life within a nudist resort eventually becomes claustrophic and limiting to some. So maybe scale is the issue. Cap d’Agde, France is considered the largest clothing-optional complex in the world, many calling it a “nudist city”. Here, people can indeed buy groceries and bank in the nude. There is no good reason something even bigger (a more complete nudist society) doesn’t exist somewhere, and it’s only a matter of time before it does.
There have been many conceptions of nudist utopias in the past and present. Many have envisioned a nudist island, while others, an area within their own country. Some even dream of a nudist colony on mars or other extraterrestrial destinations!
It’s interesting that many general ideas of a utopia and paradise include nudity. These ideas may be of religious sources, myths, legends, real-life groups. These accounts and conceptions of paradise include the Garden of Eden, at the introduction to Judeo-Christian scripture, and the Greek’s Golden Age. Modern dreams of a utopia often include nudity or nudity-tolerance.
Whatever nudist utopias may exist or have existed, the future is bound to provide even better possibilities.
"
Perhaps one or another of the more informed historians on this forum can correct or expand on this recollection.
VealJ? Do you know?
Prof?
Humbly, as an egg,
Yr old hippie
Dum vivimus, vivamus! |
| Bill Bowser |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 12:56:58 PM
There are numerous reasons why each of us is attracted to our preferred lifestyle. I have to agree with VLM34; for me it is mostly the comfort I get from being nude, and the pleasure of sharing that experience with other like-minded people. But that really isn't the point of this thread. Unless I misunderstand, isn't enrique620 (Eric) seeking individuals to interview regarding utopianism. It is impossible to establish whether this request comes from an actual student seeking enlightenment or one of the weirdos our forum often attracts. Since I'm willing to take the risk I'll offer to participate in an e-mail interview, but I don't believe I have much to say that will help establish a link between nudism and utopianism. Eric feel free to PM me and we'll see what happens.
Bill
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| VLM34 |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 02:03:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by enrique620
I am most interested in knowing if individual nudists believe in utopianism or relate this movement to a sort of Utopia?
Not me, and not anyone I know or know of.
Nudists are people who prefer not to wear clothes. That's it, that's all. |
| thornapplebison |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 02:32:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Warmskin
So far, nudist camps come closest to being in a utopia, as far as I am concerned.
I will second this.
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