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Blair
New Member
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 Posted - 03/03/2003 : 01:22:41 AM
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Not sure that I agree that nude protests are a good thing. Protected by the first amendment is much different than advancing our cause.
Frankly, I have been embarrassed at the coverage the nude protests have received. Now, many who see these protests will link nudism with looney leftism.
Now, I will admit I am a conservative nudist, and don't agree with a lot of the left-leaning philosophies one often finds in the nudist world, but to each their own. Frankly, though, I don't see a link between war and nudism. Do you? More importantly, do people at large? Yes, it has gotten attention. But nudists get the wrong kind of attention all the time. You'd think people would realize the dangers and see these protests as trivializing the nudist lifestyle.
Put another way, every time we are associated with child molestors, hippies or communes, we distance nudism from the goals we all want-greater acceptance of nudist lifestyle. Believe what you want about the war; I know there are many divergent opinions on this subject. But don't act like spoiled five-year-olds who need attention. And if you are a nudist, make sure it's clear that this is not nudism, but grandstanding; not a lifestyle, but political protest; and not our approach, no matter each person's politics, but theirs alone.
Blair
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Admin
Forum Admin
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 Posted - 03/05/2003 : 12:16:52 PM
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Blair, you're not alone in holding this viewpoint. Here is an article printed in The Age sharing your concerns:
TheAge.com.au - March 4 2003
Put your clothes back on and start marching for peace
By Tim Ferguson
Early in the 11th century, Lady Godiva made a bet with her husband. If he lowered taxes for the peasants of Coventry and endeavoured to improve their appreciation of the arts, she would ride naked on a horse through the streets of the city.
Her husband agreed and Godiva became the first political activist streaker in history.
A thousand years later, political protesters don't seem to have learnt any new tricks. Over recent weeks, hundreds of peace protesters have stripped off and laid in formation, spelling the words "NO WAR" on hillsides. The organisers say they want to "send John Howard a message".
Yeah, right Peaceniks, have you heard of the fax machine? Have you heard of the theory that naked people are rarely taken seriously?
A few weeks ago, a group of women marched on the Victorian Parliament wearing their bras on the outside of their clothes to show their opposition to a war. See the connection? Me neither. Actress Kerry Armstrong was front and centre in the protest. A friend of mine saw a photograph of Kerry, her Berlei bra crossing-her-heart to prove how serious she was about the imminent conflict that could kill thousands of innocent civilians and destabilise the Middle East.
My friend was moved by the political message. "Nice rack," he said.
The arguments for peace have weight. A war in Iraq would involve an initial storm of firepower to rival any bombardment the world has seen. Civilians will die. Australian soldiers will die. Gordon from Big Brother, now acting as a human shield in Baghdad, could have his wacky haircut singed. Iraq will have its infrastructure blown apart in the name of installing a "democracy". A new dictator who's our dictator will be installed and, after six months of photo opportunities, the Iraqi people will be left to rot. (See 'Afghanistan'.) Containment has worked for 12 years; why change it? All worthy sentiments.
The arguments in favour of war change from week to week. They have seemingly been cobbled together by a United States Administration in search of a conventional enemy in their unconventional war on terror.
Peace is always worth promoting, but giggling on a hillside in your birthday suit is an inane way to go about it. Kerry Armstrong's justification for the bra-bearing bonanza was that it would attract media attention to the likelihood of war, as if Australians had somehow missed it. The media rewarded her by talking about her bra and little else. The Australian public knows war is imminent, thank you.
It's ridiculous to suggest that we'll change our opinion on Iraq after seeing 1000 nude women forming letters on a hillside, like some soft porn Sesame Street sketch. No doubt, many of the women stripping down to their booty gear would regard themselves as feminists. Getting their nude snaps into the tabloids is a funny way to show it.
Every mass media outlet covered the recent record-breaking street marches. World leaders, even John Howard, were forced to respond to them. The marches were serious and received serious attention. The nude alphabet exercises on hillsides received attention, but it was mostly in the form of rigorous inspection by teenage boys.
Perhaps, as their next trick, the peace movement will pen new protest songs: The answer is blowing in my bumcrack; WAR! - What is it good for? (Seeing lots of nipples); All we are saying is give the Brazilian a chance.
Men and women of the peace movement, if you want to stop this war, put your clothes back on and start marching. Start talking. Start raising hell. Start acting like your point is serious enough to make with your c
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old hippie
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Posted - 06/11/2005 : 11:24:16 PM
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I wouldn'y have found this forum but for the fact that I was scrolling thru to see where I might comment on the AP story about nude bicyclists in London & Spain, drawing attention to the over-dependence on oil in Western economies. I won't paste the entire story here (it's listed under the News Forum); but the thing is, it made a few thousand people think about the topic for a few minutes at least. Back in the 70's we used to call that consciousness-raising - these days, who knows?
I see the point of the post complaining of nude protest, but politics is always a pragmatic activity - and this works. I'd rather see folks attracting attention by being nude than by throwing bombs. Gets the point across just as well, doesn't cost as much, and is easier to clean up after.
More usefully, could we devise an attention-getter to raise the consciousness of those who do not yet enjoy the pleasures of social nudity? A skinny-dip-in? Not the ticket, I know, but please feel free to contribute better ideas. It need only be newsworthy, harmless and beneficial to the cause. Line forms to the right.
Old Hippie, class of '69
school of hard knocks
Dum vivimus, vivamus!
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balataf
Forum Member
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Posted - 06/04/2006 : 09:52:05 AM
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Unfortunately, Al-Qaeda's suicide bombers and hit squads that are killing so many innocent Iraqis would only regard the nude protests as another sign of Western Civilization's decay.
I think such protests increase the killing by encouraging the bad guys!
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old hippie
Forum Member
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Posted - 06/04/2006 : 4:59:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by balataf
Unfortunately, Al-Qaeda's suicide bombers and hit squads that are killing so many innocent Iraqis would only regard the nude protests as another sign of Western Civilization's decay.
I think such protests increase the killing by encouraging the bad guys!
. Frankly, it is not a convincing argument to suggest how a suicide bomber might interpret our actions. We should not warp our behaviours to their way of thinking. If he wishes to see public protest in the same light as playing music or allowing women to drive cars; and if that to him is a sure sign of depravity, I think we must consent to disagree.
. The basic respect of divergent views which is exhibited by these demonstrations is perhaps also abhorrent to someone who desires to have a society in which only one view, as decided by the imam, is permitted. That should be our cue to promulgate, nurture, and expand this type of behavior. As the President has said, it is our freedom they hate. SO let's show the maximum amount of freedom possible, eh?
your reprobate hippie
Dum vivimus, vivamus!
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Loki
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Posted - 08/11/2007 : 1:10:22 PM
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"Nude" speech as part of public political protest serves a useful and important role in broader protections of rights to other naturist, nudist, artistic, religious, and related choices.
US courts often do not strive to uphold Constitutional law based on legal (sociological reality based) "fact" as they're obligated to do, but engage in perverse dances around underlying law largely rooted in our legal system being more like a strange religion with its own law "seminaries" than what that system purports to be. As Marc Rotenberg (EPIC senior counsel) once retorted to me during a discussion panel at a New School SOCRES conference, when challenged to suggest more effective ways to broadly protect civil rights, "Law doesn't matter; tactics do."
How twisted relative to US government theory, but how realistic in practice.
Case law presently supports "nudity" as an element of clear political grievance expression, but not equivalent 1st Amendment generic speech, religious practice, or other forms our Constitution demands be equally protected, including free and open inclusion on TV news or political debates. If more widely protected in those other forms which sociological fact demand be recognized in case law, it would become far more difficult to support claims that "nudity" either "harms minors" or is a (legal) "nuisance", which in turn would also help to support equal protections and freedom from favoritism of Calvinist dogma based restrictions alleging a government interest based on either of those postures.
In that legal tactical sense, the more "nude" political protests there are, and the wider range of public, out of the closet and into the streets, family event and across the street from rabid fundie churches or on the steps of courts and capitols, high visibility locations are used such that it's difficult to get kids to school or buy groceries without witnessing them, the better it is for nudism and naturism.
A gay rights parade with topfree transsexuals helps to break down fraudulent "harm to minors" or "nuisance" claims, especially when case law finds NYC police paying 5 figure damages for false arrests in violation of case law litigated by Rochester Naturists.
A PETA protest on downtown streets midday where young adult males and females are "nude" except for oversized food store hamburger packages with clear deli wrap tops relies on litigation fronted by the Masons and their Miami based naturist group, though PETA at a close to home event like that making the national wires from Richmond tends to have Jeff Kerr (their senior counsel, also sometimes ACLU state Board member) lurking in the background to fend off arrogant bigot cops inclined to violate or ignore the law absent some blunt reminders.
I doubt anyone who matters would confuse such tactics with messages from NAC or AANR. Naturists and nudists strongly benefit if the number and scope of such tactics increase, as a "reasonable" (legal code speak) expectation of kids encountering "nude" persons in everyday life is essential for breaking down institutionalized prejudices and bigotry of the forms Judge Titone's opinion in the Rochester Naturists topfree equality case considered, and found to sometimes be in violation of Constitutional law. Absent effective protections of a wide range of rights which break down "nudity" prejudices and discriminatory laws, "nudists" remain a bunch of fringe weirdos of too few numbers to matter to most politicians. Absent such tactics to enable more expansive arguments that courts all the way up to SCOTUS are wrong in defining "Pacifica" "indecency" as if neutral law rather than a reflection of bias and bigotry as well as equivalent to Jacobellis v Ohio "void for vagueness" subjective treatment of "pornography" as impossible to legitimately define under US law in 1964, it's difficult to assert parents have an obligation to raise kids so as to not experience severe dysphoria upon witnessing "nude" pe
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old hippie
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/14/2007 : 03:54:39 AM
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Let me see if I get this, Loki: nude protest, for any cause, is a good thing because the more nude protest there is, the more normal nudity appears to the general public. Is that the gist of your position?
I might be inclined to agree with some of that, but I cringe at the notion that it matters not what the statement is, so long as it is made in the nude. Would a nude march in support of the KKK be a good thing? [I know, very unlikely, but one needs an example.]
It is an interesting point, though, that the more often the public encounters nude marchers or protesters, the less bothered folks will be about the fact of nudity per se. And it is hard to evaluate how the balance would be, between further comfort with nudists and the growing identification of nudists with positions or policies that might be unpopular. Is it better, for example, that folks have seen a dozen nude marches in favor of vegetarianism, when they hold lots of stock in Burger King? They might be put off by the topic more than the nudists.
There is a careful political calculation to be made there, I think.
Ol' Hippie
Dum vivimus, vivamus!
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Country: USA
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old hippie
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/14/2007 : 04:11:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blair
Not sure that I agree that nude protests are a good thing. Protected by the first amendment is much different than advancing our cause.
Frankly, I have been embarrassed at the coverage the nude protests have received. Now, many who see these protests will link nudism with looney leftism.
Now, I will admit I am a conservative nudist, and don't agree with a lot of the left-leaning philosophies one often finds in the nudist world, but to each their own. Frankly, though, I don't see a link between war and nudism. Do you? More importantly, do people at large? Yes, it has gotten attention. But nudists get the wrong kind of attention all the time. You'd think people would realize the dangers and see these protests as trivializing the nudist lifestyle.
Put another way, every time we are associated with child molestors, hippies or communes, we distance nudism from the goals we all want-greater acceptance of nudist lifestyle. Believe what you want about the war; I know there are many divergent opinions on this subject. But don't act like spoiled five-year-olds who need attention. And if you are a nudist, make sure it's clear that this is not nudism, but grandstanding; not a lifestyle, but political protest; and not our approach, no matter each person's politics, but theirs alone.
Blair
Gosh, Blair, I didn't realize that hippies and communes had anything in common with child molesters. Such misplaced associations are the sort of thing that connects nudism with sexual deviance. Living a communal life and suggesting that love is a good basis for civilized behavior is not really such a bad thing, is it?
There was a guy 20 centuries ago who made similar suggestion, and that movement still has millions of adherents. Not all of them follow the philosophy completely or constantly, but the value is in the ideal, not in the shortcomings of the practitioners. Sort of like nudists, most of whom claim to see others as fellow humans, and not to need clothing badges to earn respect; a good policy, but sometimes not honored in practice.
I might not be fond of some other naturist's taste in cars or hotels; but I won't use that to associate them with perversion.
Nudism has enough difficulty being accepted in this society - we don't need to suggest that it has anything to do with politics or perversion.
Your loving Old Hippie
Dum vivimus, vivamus!
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CMx2
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Posted - 08/14/2007 : 08:28:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by old hippie
Gosh, Blair, I didn't realize that hippies and communes had anything in common with child molesters. Such misplaced associations are the sort of thing that connects nudism with sexual deviance. "
Uhm, He didn't say anything about "hippie child molesting communes". Your both on the same side here.
Like it or not, nudists too often ARE associated with child molesters, hippies and communes.
quote:
Originally posted by old hippie
"we don't need to suggest that it has anything to do with politics or perversion.
Which is exactly what nude protests do. They are generally purely political statements carried out for the sole purpose of shocking the public with nudity where it is not appropriate.
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Protesting the Protests
